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Old 02-04-2024, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
13,072 posts, read 7,505,741 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leastprime View Post
As usual, such threads get bent off topic.

JMO, spending a lot of effort to directing our youth towards STEM, is generally a waste of money. Some effort, some encouragement, some $; Yes, do help but resources are always limited.

Somehow we have large segments who don't have critical thinking skills, have low self-esteem, are caught in a social-economic bucket, ... the usual platypus platitudes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
It's not about directing them toward for the most part. It's much more about not leading them away; about providing the background and knowledge to make an informed choice. It's about not making STEM seem so "ick" to kids in middle school.

We turn our kids off by middle school. We make them believe "math is too hard." "Science is too hard." "Good grades mean I'm a social outcast."
I really don't know the answers. Outcomes can be affected by so many stuff: natural abilities, social-economic, family life, genetics, peers, teachers, teachers' support, politics, platypuses.
Perhaps the OP's Question is worded too broadly (IMO it is).

From my perspective, our DS did very well in schools which I attribute to the all of the above paragraph, with genetics and innate abilities being substantial gifts. DS just didn't care all that much what other kids thought about him although he rebelled to being physically segregated from the rest of the classroom in certain areas of instruction.
The opposite to our experience can happen, kids being segregated for needing extra help, may be a hingering factor.

Whatever works, is my answer.
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Old 02-04-2024, 12:59 PM
 
7,336 posts, read 4,127,994 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leastprime View Post
I really don't know the answers. Outcomes can be affected by so many stuff: natural abilities, social-economic, family life, genetics, peers, teachers, teachers' support, politics, platypuses.
Perhaps the OP's Question is worded too broadly (IMO it is).

Whatever works, is my answer.
I agree its a too broad thread.

Here's my rewrite: American done a bad job at recognizing that not all youth can succeed in science and engineering. American should have kept union manufacturing jobs here in the states for the segment of the population which is not academically gifted. The kind of jobs where a person could support a family without college and move up the ranks of management. It should have recognized that a service economy was never going to support a family. Now we have to push too many ill-equipped kids into science and engineering to rise the standard of living.
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Old 02-04-2024, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,534 posts, read 2,669,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
That's not the point at all. My background is in science. Scientists want to see evidence. All sorts of posters in this forum have all sorts of stories and anecdotes to tell. Few should just be accepted. Tell your anecdotes and all your beliefs as much as you wish. But until you present actual evidence, they are just that -- anecdotes and beliefs. And the same goes for me and every other poster.
What "evidence" do you want? Tape recordings of the conversations? Copies of internal memos?

Get off your legalistic high horse. I am telling you, as a gentleman of my word, that both my wife and my mother were told by principals and/or assistant principals that sending "too many" kids to the office would adversely affect their performance evaluations. Both women were experienced school teachers at this point.

Either you believe me, or you're calling me a liar. You can decide which is which.
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Old 02-04-2024, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,797 posts, read 24,297,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
What "evidence" do you want? Tape recordings of the conversations? Copies of internal memos?

Get off your legalistic high horse. I am telling you, as a gentleman of my word, that both my wife and my mother were told by principals and/or assistant principals that sending "too many" kids to the office would adversely affect their performance evaluations. Both women were experienced school teachers at this point.

Either you believe me, or you're calling me a liar. You can decide which is which.
I have nothing further to say, other than to note that you often have not accepted things I have said.
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Old 02-04-2024, 04:31 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,560 posts, read 28,652,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
I was remarking to my colleague last week in our coding class that it's not socially acceptable to be a math nerd. Our cohort is full of nerds, many of whom are glad to have found a place where they fit in.
In other words, smart people like smart things.

And dumb people like dumb things.

So what else is new?
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Old 02-04-2024, 04:41 PM
 
Location: A coal patch in Pennsyltucky
10,379 posts, read 10,658,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
That would make you an exception, but the data differs. It's pretty well understood how peer pressure, esp in the middle school years, affects studying, grades, etc.

For example:
https://insight.kellogg.northwestern...ol-to-be-smart

For year's now the "Leaky Pipeline" has measured the fall off in STEM views among girls in each age group (elementary, middle school, high school, college, and post bachelors). There is no doubt there is a huge drop in the middle school years. And now current data (Stanford) suggests the "Leaky Pipeline" applies to boys as well as girls.

And just in general, it is also well understood there is a STEM education issue in this country. For example:
https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsb20211
I think a lot of students are not getting enough practice in math and science. One of the problems is what they do in study halls. In addition to regular study halls, all middle and high schools in my area have a homeroom period that goes by different names. It is either first thing in the morning or mid-morning. Students either have an opportunity to go to a teacher for help or have time to work on homework. What I notice is most kids don't do homework but play on their phone or play games on their Chromebook. Many schools also have tutoring time before and after school. Many schools have activity busses for students who stay after school for tutoring or other activities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
The biggest hurdle for kids in middle school when it comes to Math is that they do not know their multiplication tables and that causes them to struggle more than the concepts being taught.

Finding a common denominator is an example.
Almost all test papers are full of little circles all over the paper (how they were taught to do multiplication).
When I was teaching Math calculators were not used in 6/7 grades and then handed out in 8th grade.
I agree. This is very common. Schools are moving to some algebra and geometry in second and third grade when kids haven't mastered basic arithmetic. When I was in elementary school in the 1960s, we spent a lot more time on basic arithmetic including fractions and decimals. You didn't go beyond basic arithmetic until at least 7th grade. Calculators were not an issue since they had not been invented yet.
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Old 02-04-2024, 04:48 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,797 posts, read 24,297,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
I think a lot of students are not getting enough practice in math and science. One of the problems is what they do in study halls. In addition to regular study halls, all middle and high schools in my area have a homeroom period that goes by different names. It is either first thing in the morning or mid-morning. Students either have an opportunity to go to a teacher for help or have time to work on homework. What I notice is most kids don't do homework but play on their phone or play games on their Chromebook. Many schools also have tutoring time before and after school. Many schools have activity busses for students who stay after school for tutoring or other activities.



I agree. This is very common. Schools are moving to some algebra and geometry in second and third grade when kids haven't mastered basic arithmetic. When I was in elementary school in the 1960s, we spent a lot more time on basic arithmetic including fractions and decimals. You didn't go beyond basic arithmetic until at least 7th grade. Calculators were not an issue since they had not been invented yet.
That varies a lot. In my middle school, homeroom was simply the first period class with 7 extra minutes added in for homeroom attendance and morning announcements. There were no study halls. Students took 4 core classes, 2 electives, and PE, for a 7 period day. Any extra help was available 3 days after school.
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Old 02-04-2024, 06:02 PM
 
12,846 posts, read 9,045,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
I think a lot of students are not getting enough practice in math and science. One of the problems is what they do in study halls. In addition to regular study halls, all middle and high schools in my area have a homeroom period that goes by different names. It is either first thing in the morning or mid-morning. Students either have an opportunity to go to a teacher for help or have time to work on homework. What I notice is most kids don't do homework but play on their phone or play games on their Chromebook. Many schools also have tutoring time before and after school. Many schools have activity busses for students who stay after school for tutoring or other activities.
.
Seems to be something that varies a good bit. For both my school and my kids's school, homeroom was just a 15 minute period in the morning to take roll and make announcements. In my school there were two times during the day that were called "study hall" though they weren't really in the strict sense. The first was after you finished lunch until your next class period. This was driven by the fact that we shared our cafeteria with the elementary school, so there was a mismatch between the time you were allotted to eat in the cafeteria and the class start times. The second was the end of day where we had to return to "homeroom" for announcements and wait the dismissal bell.
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Old 02-05-2024, 08:32 AM
 
Location: A coal patch in Pennsyltucky
10,379 posts, read 10,658,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
That varies a lot. In my middle school, homeroom was simply the first period class with 7 extra minutes added in for homeroom attendance and morning announcements. There were no study halls. Students took 4 core classes, 2 electives, and PE, for a 7 period day. Any extra help was available 3 days after school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Seems to be something that varies a good bit. For both my school and my kids's school, homeroom was just a 15 minute period in the morning to take roll and make announcements. In my school there were two times during the day that were called "study hall" though they weren't really in the strict sense. The first was after you finished lunch until your next class period. This was driven by the fact that we shared our cafeteria with the elementary school, so there was a mismatch between the time you were allotted to eat in the cafeteria and the class start times. The second was the end of day where we had to return to "homeroom" for announcements and wait the dismissal bell.
Every school where I have subbed has a different schedule. For example, one school has an extended homeroom first thing in the morning. This building is 7-12. After announcements and the pledge, one lower grades go to breakfast, while the upper grades have a study hall or can be called to a teacher's classroom to make up a test, etc. After around 30 minutes, the upper grades go to breakfast. First period doesn't start until 8:40. At another junior high with 7th and 8th grades, they have a period they call Wildcat time, students sign up on line to go to specific classrooms, meetings, or other activities. One grade has Wildcat time while the other class is eating lunch.

Other high schools have a homeroom around 10:45. It has to do with scheduling/lunch for students who attend the career and technology center. They travel by bus to get there.

Schools make time for these periods by making the other class periods a few minutes shorter. For example, one school has 8 periods with a mid-day homeroom. Their classes are 40 minutes long. First period has an extra 8 minutes for attendance, the pledge, and announcements.
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Old 02-05-2024, 08:45 AM
 
12,846 posts, read 9,045,657 times
Reputation: 34914
Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
Every school where I have subbed has a different schedule. For example, one school has an extended homeroom first thing in the morning. This building is 7-12. After announcements and the pledge, one lower grades go to breakfast, while the upper grades have a study hall or can be called to a teacher's classroom to make up a test, etc. After around 30 minutes, the upper grades go to breakfast. First period doesn't start until 8:40. At another junior high with 7th and 8th grades, they have a period they call Wildcat time, students sign up on line to go to specific classrooms, meetings, or other activities. One grade has Wildcat time while the other class is eating lunch.

Other high schools have a homeroom around 10:45. It has to do with scheduling/lunch for students who attend the career and technology center. They travel by bus to get there.

Schools make time for these periods by making the other class periods a few minutes shorter. For example, one school has 8 periods with a mid-day homeroom. Their classes are 40 minutes long. First period has an extra 8 minutes for attendance, the pledge, and announcements.
My kids' schools did breakfast from something like 7:15 to first bell. There was no structure to it, if you wanted it, you went and got it.

Interesting about the shorter periods at the high school. Their high school did the opposite and went to something like 90 minute periods in general, but not for all classes. Then to add some confusion to the mix, some classes were half a semester long, but double periods, others a full semester, and others a full year. It was very confusing building their schedules each year. One year they got a new guidance counselor right in the middle of summer scheduling and those schedules were so messed up some classes didn't get straightened out about six weeks into the semester. The first week they told the kids to go to the class that was on their official schedule while they figured it out. Eventually they just told the kids to go to the class they wanted to be in and the school would make that the official schedule for the semester. It was a mess.
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