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Old 11-28-2023, 11:23 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
41,665 posts, read 17,264,873 times
Reputation: 34158

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NDak15 View Post
How the hell do they get a job in that field with no college degree?
It's called internship where you get a mentor and exposure to the industry.
My company took them on every summer...HS and College.
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Old 11-28-2023, 11:44 AM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,980,955 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Yes, but children do need to learn the full implication of their major and career choices. It’s not just about what will interest them academically for 4 years, but about what lifestyle they can expect. Somebody who chooses to major in art history might not have as secure a lifestyle as some other majors. Some careers will involve long hours. Some will involve the need to travel frequently and at a moment’s notice. Some will require having a certain image. Some will involve the need to frequently relocate. Some will require the need to be unemployed for a while. Some willl require a life of poverty. But people need to learn those realities before choosing a major. That’s one reason why I’ve said maybe people need to work for a few years before going to college. If nothing else, you can decide if the lifestyles of your superiors would be acceptable to you or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boothwynman View Post
To the bolded... work at what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
As mentioned.... An applicable job with exposure to chosen field. The employer may appreciate the incentive, and pay for college. I started as a janitor in a tech firm at age 17. They paid for 5 degrees + sponsored my apprenticeship.

STEM related entry level employment...
Lab tech
Machinist
Draftsperson
Vet assistant
Assembler
Water quality sample collector (a classmate took a great job testing back country Colorado lakes). He got a snowmobile, cabin, ATV, and his company paid for college.
Hospital aide
Warehouse services
Technical delivery
Oil well / extraction services
Survey tech
... janitor

Any role that gets you access to operations, fellow employees, technology, professional services can be the appropriate way to gain a foothold to advancement and growth in an industry. Most importantly.... Exposure to if it is something you could enjoy and be successful.

I would ask any college student, "what have you done to explore your chosen field?" Exposure, informational interviews, internships, WORK...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
That would mean getting training in an adjacent technical vocation and working that for a few years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NDak15 View Post
How the hell do they get a job in that field with no college degree?
There is plenty of work that is done in professional offices that can be done by people who don't yet have a college degree. Obviously this would require a major cultural change where people work for 2 years between high school and college and where employees hire such employees, rather than the current culture. Even if it's work like cleaning the bathroom or getting coffee for the boss, it will put you in contact with people from your intended field, and you can learn about the total lifestyle, not what you are academically learning for the next 4 years. Such as:
  • Do employees typically leave early to attend children's little league games or dance recitals, or do they have pictures of their children on their desk since they otherwise never see them?
  • Do employees go on vacation each year, or is vacation only for their spouse and children, or do they spend their "vacation" with a laptop in their hotel room while their spouse and children enjoy vacation?
  • Do employees typically leave at 5:00, or do they stay late?
  • Do they work most weekends, or are they off most weekends?
  • Do they frequently have to travel, or mostly just report to the office? If they travel, is it at a moment's notice, or do they know far in advance?
  • Do they wear formal clothes every day, or typically more casual clothes?
  • Do they typically stay home when sick, or are they expected to be at work and power through illnesses?
  • Is the office mostly empty on days such as Christmas Eve, or are they treated as if they were any other work day?
  • In what type of areas do the employees mostly live?
  • What type of cars do the employees mostly drive?

Those are a few examples, but it can help you decide if the lifestyle would be acceptable to you or not.

Also, you can learn about what skills you really need to learn for the job, rather than just the fluff that colleges teach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
What's not to understand? Work as a surgeon for a few years and then go to med school.
Obviously not as a surgeon, but there are likely plenty of jobs that can be done in a surgeon's office that don't really require a college education. And it would put you in contact with the surgeon and you can learn if his/her lifestyle is acceptable to you.

Last edited by mitsguy2001; 11-28-2023 at 11:49 AM.. Reason: Fixed typo
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Old 11-28-2023, 11:44 AM
 
Location: North Dakota
10,227 posts, read 13,733,852 times
Reputation: 18010
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
they paid for 5 degrees and an apprenticeship...happens all the time...right?
All the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
What's not to understand? Work as a surgeon for a few years and then go to med school.
That's who I want operating on me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
It's so simple
For those with the least drop of initiative.

As a stem hiring professional.... We can spot it immediately.

Slackers need not apply (qualified by education, included)
So you just waltzed into their office amd showed them what you know? Or did you write equations on the board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
It's called internship where you get a mentor and exposure to the industry.
My company took them on every summer...HS and College.
For multiple years? Plus if you did it in college wouldn't that mean you were already majoring in the field?
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Old 11-28-2023, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,216 posts, read 2,416,195 times
Reputation: 12236
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
As mentioned.... An applicable job with exposure to chosen field. The employer may appreciate the incentive, and pay for college. I started as a janitor in a tech firm at age 17. They paid for 5 degrees + sponsored my apprenticeship.

STEM related entry level employment...
Lab tech
Machinist
Draftsperson
Vet assistant
Assembler
Water quality sample collector (a classmate took a great job testing back country Colorado lakes). He got a snowmobile, cabin, ATV, and his company paid for college.
Hospital aide
Warehouse services
Technical delivery
Oil well / extraction services
Survey tech
... janitor

Any role that gets you access to operations, fellow employees, technology, professional services can be the appropriate way to gain a foothold to advancement and growth in an industry. Most importantly.... Exposure to if it is something you could enjoy and be successful.

I would ask any college student, "what have you done to explore your chosen field?" Exposure, informational interviews, internships, WORK...
Lab tech, machinist, drafter, veterinary assistant certainly aren't "entry level intern" jobs unless you've had the training.
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Old 11-28-2023, 11:48 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
41,665 posts, read 17,264,873 times
Reputation: 34158
Quote:
Originally Posted by NDak15 View Post
All the time.


That's who I want operating on me.


So you just waltzed into their office amd showed them what you know? Or did you write equations on the board.


For multiple years? Plus if you did it in college wouldn't that mean you were already majoring in the field?
College interns got actual coding jobs...trivial though.
I college yes but we also had high school seniors doing internships as well.
I got one high schooler..good in math but had no exposure to programming.
I had him create a wiki and track our data (defects, fixes) and go into the labs with the testers and work with them.
He also came to dept meetings, sat in on design discussions, etc.

Nothing big or important..but exposure nevertheless.

I myself was a coop student (that's what they called interns back in the 80's).
I worked there 2 semesters and then got hired my last semester in school.
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Old 11-28-2023, 11:49 AM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,980,955 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Of course.

But since we are being anecdotal...I know a family where the father bullied his son into going into a certain profession that the boy wasn't interested in. But the father said...repeatedly...'my house...my dollars...my decision'. The kid went into the profession involved and HATED it every day of his life. The son walked away from the parents COMPLETELY. Parents beg the son to be a part of their life...no deal. The family relationship disintegrated, and now the parents are old and thinking of their declining years, essentially without a son...cause dad had to have his way.
I think that is an unfortunate effect of college being so expensive. It puts parents in the position where they feel like the paying customers, and it gives parents financial control over their young adult children. The parents will see a pre-med major as an investment in the family's future, but will see an art history major as a luxury that they can't afford. The reality is that it is not all or nothing.
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Old 11-28-2023, 11:55 AM
 
Location: North Dakota
10,227 posts, read 13,733,852 times
Reputation: 18010
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
College interns got actual coding jobs...trivial though.
I college yes but we also had high school seniors doing internships as well.
I got one high schooler..good in math but had no exposure to programming.
I had him create a wiki and track our data (defects, fixes) and go into the labs with the testers and work with them.
He also came to dept meetings, sat in on design discussions, etc.

Nothing big or important..but exposure nevertheless.

I myself was a coop student (that's what they called interns back in the 80's).
I worked there 2 semesters and then got hired my last semester in school.
I could see your point on high school students.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
Lab tech, machinist, drafter, veterinary assistant certainly aren't "entry level intern" jobs unless you've had the training.
Exactly. He lives in another dimension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
I think that is an unfortunate effect of college being so expensive. It puts parents in the position where they feel like the paying customers, and it gives parents financial control over their young adult children. The parents will see a pre-med major as an investment in the family's future, but will see an art history major as a luxury that they can't afford. The reality is that it is not all or nothing.
To be fair, art history is a you want fries with that degree. Nobody should major in things like that. Or at least get a double major with something useful. That being said, it is sad how parents try to control their kids financially in college. Since I put myself through college with loans my parents didn't have a dog in that fight. All I had paid was health insurance and car insurance.
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Old 11-28-2023, 11:58 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,057 posts, read 106,854,652 times
Reputation: 115800
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
WA publics do pretty well in STEM, because of more higher educated parents and proximity of companies and technology and medical + lots of intellectual immigrants.

The benefit of WA for STEM focus is FREE COLLEGE instead of warming a chair in HS. (since 1993)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_Start


The incentive usually comes from home, or being exposed to interests that perk, or challenge students to aspire.

That is still the 'norm' in some cultures (but not the USA, more of an exception the last few decades)
Running Start began years before 1993, with what could be called a pilot program at one highschool in Seattle and one of the private universities back in the 80's. But actually, "free college" via enrollment in college courses while in highschool has been going on quietly on a small scale for generations in California and Washington, I don't know about other states. It wasn't necessary to have a formal program set up, in order to be able to enroll kids in cc or university courses while they were in highschool. Many highschool counselors knew how to do it for the rare students who asked for that option. It just wasn't talked about. It was believed to be an option only the high-achieving students could handle.
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Old 11-28-2023, 12:06 PM
 
28,563 posts, read 18,563,896 times
Reputation: 30802
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I don't consider it to be "squandered". It's part of being a kid. It's part of growing up.
It's squandered if they devoted their time and effort and youth in those pursuits and ignored building an educational foundation that would be more broadly applicable.
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Old 11-28-2023, 12:08 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
12,954 posts, read 7,327,072 times
Reputation: 9699
Quote:
Originally Posted by leastprime View Post
We can't wait much longer to have grandkid(s) at ages 73/76. We didn't have ours until age 35/38. Our DIL is 32. Our DS is 38.
Any case, I would be mildly interested to see how our local school district does in STEM with its highly educated parents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
WA publics do pretty well in STEM, because of more higher educated parents and proximity of companies and technology and medical + lots of intellectual immigrants.

The benefit of WA for STEM focus is FREE COLLEGE instead of warming a chair in HS. (since 1993)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_Start


The incentive usually comes from home, or being exposed to interests that perk, or challenge students to aspire.

That is still the 'norm' in some cultures (but not the USA, more of an exception the last few decades)
Oregon, too, had such a program of joint classes. We opted not to pursue it. DS had skipped a grade and allowed to skip 2 grades. We thought it best to keep him near his age group. Fortunately, the school district started an IB program when he entered HS.

Up here in techy Eastside, the options are tremendous, if one can afford living here.
But as you know, technology is just a part of bringing up children.
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