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Old 12-29-2023, 09:56 AM
 
12,859 posts, read 9,076,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
The problem is a lot more complex then a student disrupting a class. Students are addicted to their phones. Most of them are assigned Chromebooks, but they want to do assignments, write papers, read books, and take tests on their phone. A common scenario is the teacher gives an assignment where answers should come from a textbook. The students don't like to use textbooks so they Google the question on their phone. Their goal is to quickly finish the assignment and then move to TikTok, Snapchat, Instagram, etc., all while listening to music on their phone.

And what if the teacher goes over the topic for the first time, but the student is absorbed with a TikTok video?
Let's break this down.

So what if they want to take tests on the phone vs Chromebooks? If the website where they are turning in the work functions with either a Chromebook or a phone, then what difference does it make? The work is done and turned in. School gets to save on buying fewer Chromebooks.

If the question can be answered by looking up the answer in the book or on the phone, what difference does it make? If it's just a simple look up and check the box question, then you'll get a check the box answer. The only difference is wasting less time to find the answer. If the knowledge is important, ask open ended questions that can't be answered by a look up. If it's a homework assignment and not done in class, then does it make a difference if they look it up on the phone, on the Chromebook, on the home computer, or go to the library and dig out the Britannica and look it up? If it's a test in class and they are supposed to answer from what they know and not cheat, then punish them for cheating just like you would if they dug out the book or whatever in a closed book test.

"And what if the teacher goes over the topic for the first time, but the student is absorbed with a TikTok video?" Well then they'll fail the test and get what they deserve, just like if they were doing something else in class. And if they do pass the test because they learned the information, what difference did it make?

If they disrupt the class, punish the disruption.
If they cheat, punish the cheating.
If they don't learn the material, they fail the test.

What makes this any different than any other thing that's been solved for hundreds of years, other than it's just easier to make a blanket rule than to actually deal with the actual problems. Which the failure to deal with problems is a lot of why we're here in the first place.
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Old 12-29-2023, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,881 posts, read 24,384,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seguinite View Post
Why is it excessive? You send the kid to the alternate school because he demonstrates an unwillingness to play by simple rules. Which is exactly why the others are there. Maybe if the felons had faced some consequences early on they wouldn't be there, either.
So let's say you have a school with about 1,000 middle schoolers, and in the course of a week 100 of them use their phones. You're going to steadily empty your school and then build more alternative schools? I understand what you're saying, but you don't get the numbers involved. You just don't get it.
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Old 12-29-2023, 11:17 AM
 
Location: WA
5,454 posts, read 7,754,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
Technology exists that will cast all the students' screens to the teachers' desktops. Administrators can view them as well. It's just not done yet. I expect it will be.
Oh it is done and has been for years.

That is another reason why Chromebooks are preferred in schools over PCs. Because this sort of thing is very easy with Chromebooks and much more difficult in the PC environment. And it is many many times easier for school tech support to maintain 2000 student chromebooks than it would be for them to maintain 2000 student PC laptops.

My school district has used software called Hapara for years and it does this exact thing. https://hapara.com/

You get a view of every student's chromebook screen and can tab between their actual screens:



or all their open tabs and documents



You can also use the guided browser features to lock their screens onto a specific web site like a test. I use this for giving multiple choice tests and quizzes. I can build an online quiz or test using Canvas which is our instructional platform and then use Hapara to direct every student's Chromebook to that exact test page and lock down their chromebooks so that they can't open up any new tabs or navigate away from that test page. I can also make the tests scrambled so that every student gets the test presented in a different order with answer choices scrambled so they can't copy off each other's screens.

But ultimately I'm not teaching an online class in the classroom. I often prefer to put their Chromebooks away and do old-school manipulatives, drawing, coloring, writing by hand, touching things, looking at things, growing things, doing labs with microscopes and lab equipment, etc. Probably 75% of my instructional time is no screens at all. The Chromebook stuff is more independent work, homework, etc.
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Old 12-29-2023, 11:27 AM
 
Location: WA
5,454 posts, read 7,754,910 times
Reputation: 8560
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
So let's say you have a school with about 1,000 middle schoolers, and in the course of a week 100 of them use their phones. You're going to steadily empty your school and then build more alternative schools? I understand what you're saying, but you don't get the numbers involved. You just don't get it.
The logistics aside, this sort of thing would never fly with parents who do, in fact, have a huge say in how schools are operated. And sending a kid to alternative school is immensely disruptive to their education. Alternative schools are not mirror images of regular schools. They don't have choir, theater, basketball, football, band, computer programming, engineering, AP classes, and about 75% of what is going on in the typical high school. Often they are in a different part of town which is going to make transportation complicated. You are going to rip a child away from all of that because they read a text from mom during class? I don't think so.

Alternative schools (as they operate around here) are more or less last-chance remedial options for kids who would otherwise be expelled. And they are also used as transition spots for kids coming out of full expulsion for drugs, fighting, etc. or juvenile detention or some such, to get their basic social and educational skills up to some sort of minimum level before they are ready to go back into the regular classroom. So they aren't remotely worried about things like AP Chemistry or jazz band or journalism or musical theater production or any of the dozens or hundreds of things that occupy and engage students in regular schools. They are trying to teach very basic skills to kids who are largely failing in the regular school environment and trying to get them up to the point that they can re-enter regular schools. And they often have counselors and instructional aids who are focused on basic life skills, school skills, and things like anger management and just being responsible enough to actually function in school.
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Old 12-29-2023, 01:20 PM
 
Location: A coal patch in Pennsyltucky
10,379 posts, read 10,677,840 times
Reputation: 12710
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Let's break this down.

So what if they want to take tests on the phone vs Chromebooks? If the website where they are turning in the work functions with either a Chromebook or a phone, then what difference does it make? The work is done and turned in. School gets to save on buying fewer Chromebooks.

If the question can be answered by looking up the answer in the book or on the phone, what difference does it make? If it's just a simple look up and check the box question, then you'll get a check the box answer. The only difference is wasting less time to find the answer. If the knowledge is important, ask open ended questions that can't be answered by a look up. If it's a homework assignment and not done in class, then does it make a difference if they look it up on the phone, on the Chromebook, on the home computer, or go to the library and dig out the Britannica and look it up? If it's a test in class and they are supposed to answer from what they know and not cheat, then punish them for cheating just like you would if they dug out the book or whatever in a closed book test.

"And what if the teacher goes over the topic for the first time, but the student is absorbed with a TikTok video?" Well then they'll fail the test and get what they deserve, just like if they were doing something else in class. And if they do pass the test because they learned the information, what difference did it make?

If they disrupt the class, punish the disruption.
If they cheat, punish the cheating.
If they don't learn the material, they fail the test.

What makes this any different than any other thing that's been solved for hundreds of years, other than it's just easier to make a blanket rule than to actually deal with the actual problems. Which the failure to deal with problems is a lot of why we're here in the first place.
I think you have to look at this from a big picture perspective. The issue is the impact on learning. It doesn't matter if it is high school, college, or the professional workplace. People are distracted by phones. The situation in education started getting worse with Facebook and YouTube, but accelerated with Snapchat, TikTok, and Instagram. If you haven't been in a classroom in the past five or ten years, you have no idea the impact. TikTok has only been around for six years.

You asked,

Quote:
If the question can be answered by looking up the answer in the book or on the phone, what difference does it make?
This is a real life example from a class where I was a long-term sub. I was teaching about WWI. The students had an assignment to define terms from the war. One of the terms was "stalemate" dealing with trench warfare on the Western Front. Around a quarter of my classes used Google and defined the term as:

Quote:
Stalemate is a situation in chess where the player whose turn it is to move is not in check and has no legal move. Stalemate results in a draw.
In other words, they refused to use the textbook and were blindly cut and pasting definitions without thinking whether it applied to the topic.
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Old 12-29-2023, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,881 posts, read 24,384,032 times
Reputation: 32990
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
The logistics aside, this sort of thing would never fly with parents who do, in fact, have a huge say in how schools are operated. And sending a kid to alternative school is immensely disruptive to their education. Alternative schools are not mirror images of regular schools. They don't have choir, theater, basketball, football, band, computer programming, engineering, AP classes, and about 75% of what is going on in the typical high school. Often they are in a different part of town which is going to make transportation complicated. You are going to rip a child away from all of that because they read a text from mom during class? I don't think so.

Alternative schools (as they operate around here) are more or less last-chance remedial options for kids who would otherwise be expelled. And they are also used as transition spots for kids coming out of full expulsion for drugs, fighting, etc. or juvenile detention or some such, to get their basic social and educational skills up to some sort of minimum level before they are ready to go back into the regular classroom. So they aren't remotely worried about things like AP Chemistry or jazz band or journalism or musical theater production or any of the dozens or hundreds of things that occupy and engage students in regular schools. They are trying to teach very basic skills to kids who are largely failing in the regular school environment and trying to get them up to the point that they can re-enter regular schools. And they often have counselors and instructional aids who are focused on basic life skills, school skills, and things like anger management and just being responsible enough to actually function in school.
Exactly. Well stated.
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Old 12-29-2023, 02:09 PM
 
12,859 posts, read 9,076,133 times
Reputation: 34954
Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
I think you have to look at this from a big picture perspective. The issue is the impact on learning. It doesn't matter if it is high school, college, or the professional workplace. People are distracted by phones. The situation in education started getting worse with Facebook and YouTube, but accelerated with Snapchat, TikTok, and Instagram. If you haven't been in a classroom in the past five or ten years, you have no idea the impact. TikTok has only been around for six years.

You asked,



This is a real life example from a class where I was a long-term sub. I was teaching about WWI. The students had an assignment to define terms from the war. One of the terms was "stalemate" dealing with trench warfare on the Western Front. Around a quarter of my classes used Google and defined the term as:



In other words, they refused to use the textbook and were blindly cut and pasting definitions without thinking whether it applied to the topic.
Well, they got the fundamental answer right, but just didn't carry it far enough.

The issue here isn't the phone but understanding sources and whether it applies to the subject at hand.
Suppose they looked it up on the Chromebook instead of the phone? Blindly cutting and pasting an answer isn't the same as not using the textbook. Seems like a very teachable moment to show them how to understand sources and check their research regardless of using a textbook or online. And to ask themselves if the answer made sense. If everyone had used the textbook and just cut and pasted from it so to speak, they would have gotten the right answer but the whole class would have missed a much bigger learning opportunity.

As someone who hired those kids, I'd much rather they learn to cross check multiple sources and be able to understand whether the answer they find applies to the situation at hand than simply grabbing the classroom solution.
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Old 12-29-2023, 03:59 PM
 
4,865 posts, read 3,292,420 times
Reputation: 9489
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20 View Post
Alternative schools teach basic classes. You want a kid from an AP class who is bored and looks at his phone to be tossed into the DAEP, lose their AP classes, possibly ending their ability to graduate in the top 10% that guarantees entry to certain state universities in Texas? That's excessive. And what happens when 500 kids are sent to DAEP and there's no capacity for them?

I want them to follow simple rules, or face meaningful consequences. Period. It's not that difficult to understand.
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Old 12-29-2023, 04:24 PM
 
4,865 posts, read 3,292,420 times
Reputation: 9489
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
So let's say you have a school with about 1,000 middle schoolers, and in the course of a week 100 of them use their phones. You're going to steadily empty your school and then build more alternative schools? I understand what you're saying, but you don't get the numbers involved. You just don't get it.

Do you people really think kids are stupid enough to keep doing it if they see consequences actually happen? I don't. They'll follow the simple rules when they see they won't get away with it.
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Old 12-29-2023, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,881 posts, read 24,384,032 times
Reputation: 32990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seguinite View Post
Do you people really think kids are stupid enough to keep doing it if they see consequences actually happen? I don't. They'll follow the simple rules when they see they won't get away with it.
Well, after 33 years of teaching and administering, I think you're extremely naïve.
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