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Old 02-07-2024, 11:59 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,755 posts, read 24,253,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
Because teachers need to stay employed, so public schools must teach silly subjects. Same reason college degrees are full of fluff courses.

If I had any say, every single grade K-12 would be taught personal finance/money management. Its one of the most important things you will do in your life.
I think perhaps that you ought to explain the bolded since you don't indicate who or what you are responding to.
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Old 02-08-2024, 05:44 AM
 
Location: Suburbia
8,826 posts, read 15,309,730 times
Reputation: 4533
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
Because teachers need to stay employed, so public schools must teach silly subjects. Same reason college degrees are full of fluff courses.

If I had any say, every single grade K-12 would be taught personal finance/money management. Its one of the most important things you will do in your life.
Our district does require at least one HS credit in economics and personal finance to be completed prior to a standard diploma graduation.

The K-8 social science curriculum has economics and personal finance standards (goods, services, needs/wants, economic choice, opportunity cost, etc.) built in.
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Old 02-08-2024, 06:48 AM
 
12,831 posts, read 9,025,507 times
Reputation: 34873
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgbwc View Post
I was curious about the part of the question about trades, so I looked at our local high school's course catalog. I'm sure some of the following classes would sufficiently fit under that category:

Trade and Industrial:
Auto Collision Svc (1, 2 & 3), Auto Technology (1, 2, & 3), Carpentry (1, 2, & 3), Construction Tech (1, 2, 3), Cosmetology (1, 2), Criminal Justice (1, 2), Elec Const & Eng (1, 2, 3), Heating & AC (1, 2), Prof Photo Studio (1, 2), TV Media Production (1, 2, 3), Welding (1, 2)

Technology and Engineering:
STEM Design, STEM Pre-Engineering, STEM Engineering HN, STEM AdvEngineering HN, Engineering Drawing, Architect Drawing, Aerospace Science (1, 2), Electronics, Engineer Systems (1, 2), Robotic Systems (1, 2), Engineer Math

Marketing:
Marketing, Fashion Marketing (1, 2), Sports Enter Marketing, Sports Enter Management, Entrepreneurship (1, 2), Social Media Marketing

Health and Medical Sciences:
Expl Lang Medicine, Health Informatics, Health Science, Biotech Foundation, Medical Code & Bill (1, 2), Medical Assistant (1, 2), Intro to Nursing (1, 2), Patient Care Tech, Practical Nursing (1, 2), Phys/Occ Therapy (1,2), Dental Careers (1, 2), Pharmacy Tech (1, 2), Veterinary Science (1, 2), 911 Dispatch, Emerg Med Tech (1, 2), Firefighting (1, 2)

Family and Consumer Sciences:
Life Planning, Nutrition and Wellness, Child Dev & Parenting, Culinary Arts (1, 2), Culinary Operations, Pastry Arts, Fashion Careers (1, 2)

Business and Information Technology:
Business Law, Business Mgmt, Accounting, Information Systems, Adv Information Sys, Web Page Development, CS Programming, Cybersecurity Fund, Accounting, Adv, Accounting, Cyber: Oracle, Adv Game Design & Dev, Cloud Computing, Cyber: Net Admin (1, 2), Cyber: Cisco

Here's the thing. Y'all with all these riches of classes seem to think that's the norm throughout the country. Sure, I've lived in places with tons of options like that. But I've lived in more places where those options are just a fantasy. You've listed almost more classes within "trades" than most of the local schools have in classes total. For example, out of your list of Trade & Industrial, the local schools "offer" cosmetology, welding, and criminal justice. But with a catch -- students have to drive two counties over to the county that actually has the school where the classes are actually taught. The list of Family & Consumer Sciences doesn't even exist, so those aren't even options.
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Old 02-08-2024, 07:07 AM
 
12,831 posts, read 9,025,507 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
Also bear in mind that due to state laws (and not local schools) typical HS student doesn't really have a lot of extra room to dive deeply into those sorts of practical trades listed above. The last two states I have taught in were Texas and Washington which are on the opposite ends of the ideological spectrum but still pretty similar when it comes to high school. These are the mandatory graduation requirements established in STATE LAW in each state.

TEXAS
4 years English
3 years Math
3 years Science
3 years Social Studies
2 years language
1 year PE
5 years electives/CTE

WASHINGTON
4 years English
3 years Math
3 years Science
3 years Social Studies
2 years language
2 years health/PE
1 year arts (music/drama/art)
1 year CTE
4 years electives

.
Our state has a list like that too. But what if we look at it dispassionately rather than "because we've done it that way?" Do most kids really need four years of English in high school? They've been taking it for years already. Does an extra year of diagraming sentences really mean anything for most kids? I'd even argue that it's redundant for college bound kids since all freshmen get another year of it anyway.

Same question for math? Are most people best served by three years of high school math or would they be better served by two years of math (algebra 2 & geometry) and then a year of basic finance math (bank balances, interest earned vs interest paid, etc?

I can buy three years of social studies if it includes at least a year of US History and a year of US government & civics.

I understand having foreign language, but I'd move that earlier, like elementary school, where learning languages is easier.

A year of art & music? Why even require that? Seems like we're OK with mandating art & music, but not OK with mandating a year of basic shop skills or basic cooking and household skills?

With minimal changes, there's time in the schedule to add a year of basic shop and repair skills; basic cooking and household skills; and basic personal finance skills just by goring some sacred college bound cows. All of which could still be offered as electives for those who want them.
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Old 02-08-2024, 07:36 AM
 
Location: A coal patch in Pennsyltucky
10,385 posts, read 10,647,904 times
Reputation: 12699
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
Schools do try to identify students who pose violent threats. Beyond that they don't really have mental health professionals on staff other than counselors who aren't really trained for that sort of thing but do it anyway.

There is a shortage of mental health professionals across all aspects of society. Schools can't afford to keep a bunch of them on staff. And it is exceedingly difficult for parents to find good mental health professionals for their children even if they are wealthy and have good insurance. We have gone through that with one of our kids. It was worse during the pandemic. And if the parents are poor and on Medicaid, or have no insurance, much worse still.
I agree 100%. In the case of the Michigan school shooting, the school met with the parents earlier in the day of the shooting. They are still accused of not doing enough. Everyone should read about the details of this case.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/oxf...ict/index.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
Also bear in mind that due to state laws (and not local schools) typical HS student doesn't really have a lot of extra room to dive deeply into those sorts of practical trades listed above. The last two states I have taught in were Texas and Washington which are on the opposite ends of the ideological spectrum but still pretty similar when it comes to high school. These are the mandatory graduation requirements established in STATE LAW in each state.

TEXAS
4 years English
3 years Math
3 years Science
3 years Social Studies
2 years language
1 year PE
5 years electives/CTE

WASHINGTON
4 years English
3 years Math
3 years Science
3 years Social Studies
2 years language
2 years health/PE
1 year arts (music/drama/art)
1 year CTE
4 years electives

Almost identical. The main difference is that WA mandates that one elective has to be arts and one elective be CTE. But gives students the flexibility to wave that and the language requirement if they develop a different specific pathway.

Basically this means that students even in magnet school programs only have a few free electives to actually do all those different career/tech classes. No one is going to learn an actual skilled trade in that amount of time. They are just going to get a taste of something that they might want to pursue further on. For example, Boeing doesn't hire aircraft mechanics straight out of a HS CTE program. That would be ridiculous. Nor do hospitals.
In my area some of the schools have two long bus rides to back and forth to the Career and Technology Center (CTC). This is time they do not have in the classroom at their high school. There is a CTC in a neighboring county where the students go all day and receive their core academic classes in the same building. It seems to make sense to have different graduation requirements for CTC students.
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Old 02-08-2024, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,755 posts, read 24,253,304 times
Reputation: 32902
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Here's the thing. Y'all with all these riches of classes seem to think that's the norm throughout the country. Sure, I've lived in places with tons of options like that. But I've lived in more places where those options are just a fantasy. You've listed almost more classes within "trades" than most of the local schools have in classes total. For example, out of your list of Trade & Industrial, the local schools "offer" cosmetology, welding, and criminal justice. But with a catch -- students have to drive two counties over to the county that actually has the school where the classes are actually taught. The list of Family & Consumer Sciences doesn't even exist, so those aren't even options.
1. Here's the thing. Y'all with a dearth of these classes seem to think that's the norm throughout the country.

2. A lot of y'all want local control above state or national control. Okay...you got it. Now stop complaining about it.

3. Y'all complain about the cost of educating our children. And then y'all don't want to spend the money needed to come up to a standard y'all seem to want. Y'all want to spend like a Wal-Mart but get a Macy's standard.
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Old 02-08-2024, 07:46 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,183 posts, read 107,774,599 times
Reputation: 116077
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
The first two I understand. But the third, I'm afraid I don't know what you mean. What do you mean by "job training" and "white-collar apprenticeships? Do you mean co-op programs? I knew plenty who did those.

-High schools not offering many classes on the trades, driver's ed, or ANY skills on money management
Because starting in the late 70s/early 80s, more and more high schools began pushing "college for everyone" and dropping anything that wasn't somewhat college prep related. When I was in school, pretty much every high school had a Vo-Tech program and drivers ed. As well as some basic business classes on everything from basic money and banking to how to write business letters. That began shifting to central Vo-Tech high schools and then slowly out of the high school system.

-No classes on impulse control, self-discipline, conflict resolution, etc.
My kids did have some classes on these, though they weren't semester long courses with grades. They were short classes where the schools would take a day or two each semester and spend the whole day on these types of topics. In college they actually did have courses on these. In fact, our oldest's college had a mandatory class for all freshman first semester on getting along, conflict resolution, mature decision making, because so many kids were coming into school without those skills and getting into trouble their first semester.

University not offering job training or white-collar apprenticeships, forcing graduates into the catch-22 involving jobs and job experience
As I said, you'll have to define what you mean here because I'm not sure how a university can give you job training since there are thousands of possible jobs and companies to pick from.
Andrew Young, who was ambassador to the UN under Carter, and later devoted much of his time to at-risk inner-city youth, said that the shift to eliminate Vo-Tech began at the same time that the prison-industrial complex began to expand. As Vo-Tech began to disappear from the schools, new prisons appeared in marginalized neighborhoods. He believed that was no coincidence, and that a tacit policy had been put in place, abandoning inner-city youth.
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Old 02-08-2024, 07:55 AM
 
861 posts, read 864,882 times
Reputation: 2189
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1 View Post
-High schools not offering many classes on the trades, driver's ed, or ANY skills on money management
Where are you at that these classes are not offered, seriously? Our public schools teach all those things and always have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1 View Post
-No classes on impulse control, self-discipline, conflict resolution, etc.
This type of stuff is now taught in pre-school and early elementary. I've actually been very impressed by my kid's schools in teaching these things. Ultimately this stuff falls on the parents and they are the ones that should be teaching it. Still many kudos to our elementary teachers because when I was in school these things were not taught.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1 View Post
-University not offering job training or white-collar apprenticeships, forcing graduates into the catch-22 involving jobs and job experience (I'm sure you know exactly what I am talking about).
You're jumping topics here from local government function to a separate University institution. However, it's pretty standard that college students do internships and career related jobs during the Summer now. It's been around over 30 years but now it's pretty much standard and you're behind if you don't do it. It's extremely competitive to get in with the best opportunities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1 View Post
Why?

Serious question.
OP, why are you asking this here in a random online forum instead of asking it at your School Board meeting? Why are you not meeting with your City, County and School District officials to ask them and to encourage them to offer these things in your area?? Serious Question. Many schools do offer all the things you ask about. You should be holding your elected officials accountable. That is your responsibility.
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Old 02-08-2024, 08:05 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
20,360 posts, read 14,632,606 times
Reputation: 39396
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveinMtAiry View Post
It would be nice if gym class took a day or 2 and taught basic first aide.
Gym class...what they taught us - how to play a bunch of dodgeball/sportsball games I'd never play as an adult and didn't want to play as a kid either, as well as some tumbling and a lot of running around a track. How to dance the Electric Slide for some freaking reason.

What I wish they'd taught - how to properly/safely use common exercise equipment, how to do more home workout stuff besides sit ups and push ups, possibly a martial arts elective series. I actually recommend martial arts for every kid, although sadly not all families can afford it. Not because it teaches fighting skills or self defense, but because it teaches self control and confidence.
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Old 02-08-2024, 08:07 AM
 
12,831 posts, read 9,025,507 times
Reputation: 34873
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
1. Here's the thing. Y'all with a dearth of these classes seem to think that's the norm throughout the country.

2. A lot of y'all want local control above state or national control. Okay...you got it. Now stop complaining about it.

3. Y'all complain about the cost of educating our children. And then y'all don't want to spend the money needed to come up to a standard y'all seem to want. Y'all want to spend like a Wal-Mart but get a Macy's standard.
The only one complaining about local control seems to be you. You mention it so often. Do you have a problem with taxpayers having a say?

We aren't complaining about the cost of educating children. Just about the money wasted on front office "education professionals" who "aren't to blame" for anything (so why are they there if they aren't responsible for anything?), when that money could be spent on classroom teachers. Who wants to spend a Macy's price when we aren't even getting Walmart quality?

Of course, considering how Macy's is doing, perhaps their business model isn't what schools should follow.
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/18/macy...cut-costs.html
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