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Old 02-08-2024, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
20,203 posts, read 14,425,887 times
Reputation: 39028

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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
I'm going to use this as an example.

Most of you who haven't been in a high school classroom for decades are relating what was done when you were in school, in some cases five or six decades ago.

Using the PE example (and we did one entire year, twice a week, of nothing but calisthenics) what was done then is not done now, where the focus is on lifetime sports and physical fitness. It's not "throw out a bag of balls". As a note, "Dance" has been infused in PE since at least the 1960s and the standalone Dance class counts as a PE in some states.

It's just like you guys who say they've gotten rid of Civics or Home Ec (I'll address tnff later about that) when all that's happened is the name has changed. In Maryland Civics is called Local, State and National Government while Home Ec is Family and Consumer Sciences which is an umbrella for several different classes including cooking, cuisines, fashion design and child development (which in many systems infused a school run, advanced student staffed, pre-school).

TNFF, if your local system doesn't have FaCS check into its accreditation. That is required, or was, in the markers for full regional accreditation.

And Senior English isn't "diagramming sentences", it's a Literature based course, usually American, British or Modern (school systems vary).
*nods* I was in school in the 80s-90s, and that's neither a long time ago nor necessarily similar to the present day, and I'd certainly hope that they've improved curriculum since I was there, though I can't speak to anything other than what my sons did when they were in, which was mid 00s to late 10s. And it wasn't better from what I could see at that point. /shrug. But I guess what's interesting about hearing past perspectives, is to ponder if, to whatever extent any of this is or isn't a problem...is it a new problem? Has it gotten any better or worse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sno0909 View Post
Because "the man" wants us to be poor, uneducated, weak, and unhealthy. Teaching us otherwise goes against the agenda.
Well. I personally suspect that....well, not THE man, (was there ever just the one?) but some of the "men" want for public schooling to be degraded, lose support, and eventually be mostly dismantled, and at the same time to loosen the child labor laws. So you get the children of affluent families going to schools you have to pay for, and the kids of poorer families going into manual labor jobs young, just like the good (bad) old days. After all, doing anything different is just "socialism" and "redistribution."

What sucks is that a lot of kids hate going to school, and from what I recall of it this was understandable, but they just do not understand how much to their benefit it is, nor how various groups of people had to fight for even the level of education that they get, or how much more powerless and disenfranchised they'd be without it.
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Old 02-08-2024, 02:58 PM
 
12,578 posts, read 8,809,297 times
Reputation: 34390
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
So you, as a community member, and a constant critic of schools, you have done nothing to advocate at the local level for what you think your schools should include. You haven't actively participated in school board meetings. You haven't volunteered to participate in local or state study groups with the purpose of improving your school district. You've taken the easy way out -- writing snide, accusatory posts about educators across the United States.

I would have to say that there is a big difference between what critics claim and what they actually do to bring about change.
And once again you are simply completely wrong. You made a whole range of incorrect assumptions because I disagree with you. I have been for some years now a member of several boards and committees involved in our local education system. That's why I first found CD, because I was searching education discussions and hoped that would actually happen here -- people interested in education having a discussion.

But what I found, like I've found in those boards and committees: An entrenched bureaucracy that has a stranglehold on American education and is unwilling to seriously discuss anything.
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Old 02-08-2024, 03:06 PM
 
12,578 posts, read 8,809,297 times
Reputation: 34390
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
I'm just pointing out WHY things are they way they are. Individual schools and school districts don't decide these things. They are decided [democratically] by state legislatures and implemented by state departments of education.

As for the actual WHY of all of these graduation standards. I would have to guess that it is probably a combination of:

1. Colleges around the country informing states as to what their minimum and preferred set of HS courses is for incoming freshman. In other words, what a basic college preparatory curriculum looks like.

2. Standardized testing under "No Child Left Behind", "Race to the Top", "Common Core" and now the SAT/ACT which are being used in some states to evaluate individual school and student performance. These standardized tests are heavily weighted towards math and English and so schools and states are going to emphasize those subjects. Washington doesn't want its students to perform worse than Texas on things like the SAT. And then within each state and district, ever school wants to be the top rated schools based on test scores. So they all want their students to perform well on standardized testing with is mostly math and English

3. It is what the public and business world expects. The general public expects schools all students to at LEAST be proficient in math and English before dabbling in other more esoteric topics. And the employers want their employees to at least come in with good math and English skills. They can teach their employees how to repair photocopiers, or rebuild transmissions, drive a truck, or wire a house. But they can't start from scratch and teach them reading, writing, and math.

4. Electives can be more limiting than you might think if a student has a specific interest. For example, two of my daughters were in their HS marching bands. If you are going to do marching band all 4 years, boom, that is 4 out of your 5 electives sucked up right there. Same if you are into drama or any other specific thing. It eats up all your electives.
I'm not disagreeing that those graduation standards are there; just trying to have a discussion if those are the most appropriate standards. Yes, we want students to be proficient; the question I'm asking is why does it take that many years to be proficient? What does "proficient" mean in this context? That's one of the discussions we need to have. From the point of view of a lot of us, adding more time isn't increasing proficiency. By the measures available, general proficiency seems to be going down, not up. That would say the current process isn't working and suggest a new process is needed.

I agree electives can be limiting. All I'm asking is why are we limiting the choice of electives available in so many schools? Why, for example, are art and music often required, but basic cooking and minor repairs not required? These are discussions we need to have about the goals of our education system. But it seems we can't.
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Old 02-08-2024, 03:20 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
44,878 posts, read 59,846,876 times
Reputation: 60419
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I'm not disagreeing that those graduation standards are there; just trying to have a discussion if those are the most appropriate standards. Yes, we want students to be proficient; the question I'm asking is why does it take that many years to be proficient? What does "proficient" mean in this context? That's one of the discussions we need to have. From the point of view of a lot of us, adding more time isn't increasing proficiency. By the measures available, general proficiency seems to be going down, not up. That would say the current process isn't working and suggest a new process is needed.

I agree electives can be limiting. All I'm asking is why are we limiting the choice of electives available in so many schools? Why, for example, are art and music often required, but basic cooking and minor repairs not required? These are discussions we need to have about the goals of our education system. But it seems we can't.
Some of it's staffing, much of it's scheduling.

When you build a schedule the first thing you have to fill out are the "must haves", the graduation requirements (whatever they are).

Then you pump in the electives which are mostly done based on student interest. You have a lot of kids who want to take, say, Psych you create the sections. Of course you have to build in some space for AP classes which are technically electives.

I don't think Home Ec or Shop was ever required in high school, although most Junior High kids took them (when I was in school girls took Home Ec and boys took Shop). I don't remember anything in Shop dealing with "repairs". A bird house, a pencil holder and a three gun hanging gun rack is what I remember. for Wood The next year was a plastic letter opener and a **** ton of vinyl change purses. I don't have a clue what we did the 2nd Semester in Electrical, the teacher just sat there and burped a lot. He drank.
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Old 02-08-2024, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,124 posts, read 23,785,288 times
Reputation: 32521
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
And once again you are simply completely wrong. You made a whole range of incorrect assumptions because I disagree with you. I have been for some years now a member of several boards and committees involved in our local education system. That's why I first found CD, because I was searching education discussions and hoped that would actually happen here -- people interested in education having a discussion.

But what I found, like I've found in those boards and committees: An entrenched bureaucracy that has a stranglehold on American education and is unwilling to seriously discuss anything.
So you've been a member of these boards and committees and failed to move the needle. Sounds like you failed. Take responsibility. OR understand that your view of what education should be is not shared by others.
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Old 02-08-2024, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Suburbia
8,792 posts, read 15,228,972 times
Reputation: 4487
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
I'm going to use this as an example.

Most of you who haven't been in a high school classroom for decades are relating what was done when you were in school, in some cases five or six decades ago.

Using the PE example (and we did one entire year, twice a week, of nothing but calisthenics) what was done then is not done now, where the focus is on lifetime sports and physical fitness. It's not "throw out a bag of balls". As a note, "Dance" has been infused in PE since at least the 1960s and the standalone Dance class counts as a PE in some states.

It's just like you guys who say they've gotten rid of Civics or Home Ec (I'll address tnff later about that) when all that's happened is the name has changed. In Maryland Civics is called Local, State and National Government while Home Ec is Family and Consumer Sciences which is an umbrella for several different classes including cooking, cuisines, fashion design and child development (which in many systems infused a school run, advanced student staffed, pre-school).

TNFF, if your local system doesn't have FaCS check into its accreditation. That is required, or was, in the markers for full regional accreditation.

And Senior English isn't "diagramming sentences", it's a Literature based course, usually American, British or Modern (school systems vary).
Maybe we can address the fact that some are still referring to it as “gym class”.
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Old 02-08-2024, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Suburbia
8,792 posts, read 15,228,972 times
Reputation: 4487
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Here's the thing. Y'all with all these riches of classes seem to think that's the norm throughout the country. Sure, I've lived in places with tons of options like that. But I've lived in more places where those options are just a fantasy. You've listed almost more classes within "trades" than most of the local schools have in classes total. For example, out of your list of Trade & Industrial, the local schools "offer" cosmetology, welding, and criminal justice. But with a catch -- students have to drive two counties over to the county that actually has the school where the classes are actually taught. The list of Family & Consumer Sciences doesn't even exist, so those aren't even options.
The title of this thread is, “Why do schools STILL not want to teach “life”?”. It is not, “Why do schools in my local area STILL not want to teach “life”?”. The original post is pretty broad in its coverage and I put it the same category as, “Schools don’t teach spelling” and “Schools don’t say the Pledge”. I posted to show that there are schools that do indeed still want to “teach life” and there are courses that address what the OP thinks should be covered. I know the number of offerings may be exemplary, but I’d be surprised if the schools completely lack any instruction in the trades or personal economics.
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Old 02-08-2024, 03:46 PM
 
Location: A coal patch in Pennsyltucky
10,244 posts, read 10,491,670 times
Reputation: 12542
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgbwc View Post
Maybe we can address the fact that some are still referring to it as “gym class”.
Yes, even all the students and teachers.
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Old 02-08-2024, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Suburbia
8,792 posts, read 15,228,972 times
Reputation: 4487
Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
Yes, even all the students and teachers.
Really? I haven’t heard either refer to “gym class” in a long time (decades) at the ES level.
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Old 02-08-2024, 05:18 PM
 
23,885 posts, read 10,251,883 times
Reputation: 45669
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
1. Here's the thing. Y'all with a dearth of these classes seem to think that's the norm throughout the country.

2. A lot of y'all want local control above state or national control. Okay...you got it. Now stop complaining about it.

3. Y'all complain about the cost of educating our children. And then y'all don't want to spend the money needed to come up to a standard y'all seem to want. Y'all want to spend like a Wal-Mart but get a Macy's standard.
Would you be so kind to drop the hidden insult? Thank you.
Do you do any research on who offers such resources for students? Have you volunteered to teach life skills? Then you would know that you are generally dealing with students whose understanding of math is marginal and the attention span is that of a gnat. Why do I need to balance a check book when I pay by phone? Sew a button to a shirt, do laundry, cook a meal, ... . Not to forget - allow others their opinion.
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