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Old 03-29-2024, 12:22 PM
 
12,854 posts, read 9,071,750 times
Reputation: 34942

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmition View Post
And sometimes people will state things as though it is a fact, because "everyone knows it is true", when it is not. Maybe it was true 20 years ago, maybe it is true in one particular place, and these caveats matter - you can't just state it as a generality and expect people to accept it without question.
Since that question has been answered before in this thread, in other threads on this forum, and is readily researchable, what would you consider a sufficient response, other than constantly moving goalposts that can never be answers?

From EdWeek, Horn & Moesta, Mar 2020
Forty years ago 32 percent of counselors and teachers advised all students to go to college. Just 10 years later, in 1990, that percentage had doubled with roughly two-thirds of educators recommending college for all. Despite a recent surge in popularity for career and technical education, signs indicate that the college recommendation trend has increased over the last generation.

The increase from the 80s also helps explain why those in earlier times didn't see it then.
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Old 03-29-2024, 12:30 PM
 
8,886 posts, read 4,589,005 times
Reputation: 16247
lol - lotsa not-so-humble brags about how I succeeded without any kollege. Good for you. Bill Gates dropped out, and he's did okay too. But your no Bill Gates.

I guess if you see college as nothing but a vocational school for white collar jobs, then that's what you get. I had a young lady working for me in accounting with a 4 year degree in Art History and had a second degree in Accounting. She would tell you that Art History was her passion, and her studies in that field were worth every minute and every penny. Accounting was just a way to pay the bills while she pursued her passion.

There are people like that, you know. Learning for the sake of learning what matters to you. What a concept
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Old 03-29-2024, 12:31 PM
 
12,854 posts, read 9,071,750 times
Reputation: 34942
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarryKnight1 View Post
Besides the fact that I don’t take marching orders from people not in authority (I thought I made this clear to this particular poster at least once beforehand…) I would not provide the poster with sources because it’s also well documented that when that particular poster is provided with sources, they just provide other cop outs and find something else to nitpick. If it wasn’t that, they will find something else to split hairs on. There’s no point to any of it, because they just want to bicker, and they couldn’t care less about how many sources or proof are provided.
I know. I'm just constantly torn between ignoring those posters vs the potential for some other person that may read this in the future to gain some insight from the source.
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Old 03-29-2024, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,542 posts, read 2,694,630 times
Reputation: 13110
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Loud View Post
LOL nice try I guess.

I am talking about how far behind those with degrees are when it comes to conducting themselves. They seem emotionally one-dimensional when compared to those drop outs with street smarts. I see it. It's wonderful a person has a head full of knowledge. Good stuff. Love it. ...But... being unable to communicate, adjust, and be agile, without immature emotional attachment with management or customers in any reasonable way is noticeable. They just simply seem behind.

This is a company that designs reverse engineering, inspection, and CAD design software. People always think engineers need to be designing the next Corvette or Space Shuttle, but never think about the software tools and systems that enable everything you just described. I would like to hire mechanical engineers for the roles because in theory they can speak the same language and interpret the feedback received from the customers and OEMs. But alas we found on-the-job training, a series of brown bags lunch and learns, and internships put us further ahead.

I can teach knowledge, but I can't make someone emotionally mature no matter how much mentoring we dedicate to it.
So you're not going to answer my question.

I'd suggest your so-called mechanical engineers are technicians or draftsmen. Now for the jobs of a technician or draftsman, that's exactly who you need to hire. But you're not hiring actual engineers.

I'd like to see a "brown bag lunch and learn" that effectively communicates, in a way that people can apply, Miner's cumulative damage hypothesis (just to name one issue I'm currently dealing with).

From textual evidence I can see you don't really have an understanding of what engineering consists of.
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Old 03-29-2024, 01:42 PM
 
Location: In the elevator!
835 posts, read 478,554 times
Reputation: 1422
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I know. I'm just constantly torn between ignoring those posters vs the potential for some other person that may read this in the future to gain some insight from the source.
I doubt that there is much convincing to be done, both of them figuring themselves subject matter experts because they wasted their careers doing decades in mediocre teaching / middle management positions in junior high schools, and on multiple occasions have directly stated that anyone who doesn’t work in public education has no business offering up any opinions. Perhaps we should, according to them, gate the education forum to a school employee only echo chamber.

Now for all the nitpicking, hair splitting, and public school teacher / middle management expertise in response to this post….
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Old 03-29-2024, 01:44 PM
 
Location: In the elevator!
835 posts, read 478,554 times
Reputation: 1422
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Following your earlier cue...do you have some statistics to back that up? Or is that just anecdoctal?
I can provide you instructions on how to find sources if you are incapable of doing so, as implied by your last two posts, but like any good teacher, I’m certainly not going to make it as easy as just giving you the answer, especially if you are asking me to do something rather than just doing it yourself, which either implies you just want to argue, or cannot figure out how to find information.

Last edited by StarryKnight1; 03-29-2024 at 01:53 PM..
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Old 03-29-2024, 01:50 PM
 
Location: In the elevator!
835 posts, read 478,554 times
Reputation: 1422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitt Chick View Post
How about citing sources for the rest of us then?
Why would you need me to do it? It’s probably just easier to look these things up yourself directly rather than involving me, unless you’re trying to just bicker, and couldn’t care less about how many sources I provide should I do so. By necessity, it must be that, or you’re just incapable of doing your own due diligence so you are foisting it on me. Either way, I’m not entertaining it.
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Old 03-29-2024, 02:03 PM
 
1,586 posts, read 1,131,267 times
Reputation: 5169
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
So you're not going to answer my question.

I'd suggest your so-called mechanical engineers are technicians or draftsmen. Now for the jobs of a technician or draftsman, that's exactly who you need to hire. But you're not hiring actual engineers.

I'd like to see a "brown bag lunch and learn" that effectively communicates, in a way that people can apply, Miner's cumulative damage hypothesis (just to name one issue I'm currently dealing with).

From textual evidence I can see you don't really have an understanding of what engineering consists of.
Draftsmen? uhm... no. Unsure why this is hard to grasp. If I say more I will risk revealing my company or customers and am not going to do that.

Anyways... Since you are so keen on expert authority, I provided my insights as an expert on the differences hiring and managing grads verses dropouts. So you choose not to accept it. I can live with it.
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Old 03-29-2024, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,542 posts, read 2,694,630 times
Reputation: 13110
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Loud View Post
Draftsmen? uhm... no. Unsure why this is hard to grasp. If I say more I will risk revealing my company or customers and am not going to do that.

Anyways... Since you are so keen on expert authority, I provided my insights as an expert on the differences hiring and managing grads verses dropouts. So you choose not to accept it. I can live with it.
A motivated eager dropout who has no idea of math past high school algebra and has never heard of vectors or a free body diagram is not likely to be able to determine stresses in a truss. Or to be able to understand why a component is failing in high cycle fatigue; or to predict COP for a refrigeration system that only exists on paper.

Never mind the other fields like electrical engineering where calculus in complex variables is a prerequisite.

This has nothing to do with expert authority and everything to do with a body of knowledge and skill that actual mechanical engineers are familiar with, and that is very difficult if not impossible to acquire without serious guidance and teaching. You're not going to pick these things up from a few YouTubes and a "lunch and learn" session.

For lower-level tasks - repetitive testing, plug-and-chug calculations set out by someone else, following a pre-determined code for calculations - yeah, I'd rather have an eager motivated dropout than a surly uncooperative degree-holder. But there do exist eager motivated degreed engineers. They won't stick around long if all you offer them is rote work. But if you have actual engineering work for them, they'll have a command of the material that allows them to solve your more complex issues.
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Old 03-29-2024, 03:36 PM
 
1,499 posts, read 1,675,063 times
Reputation: 3691
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
From EdWeek, Horn & Moesta, Mar 2020
Forty years ago 32 percent of counselors and teachers advised all students to go to college. Just 10 years later, in 1990, that percentage had doubled with roughly two-thirds of educators recommending college for all. Despite a recent surge in popularity for career and technical education, signs indicate that the college recommendation trend has increased over the last generation.

The increase from the 80s also helps explain why those in earlier times didn't see it then.
Thank you. I don't often look at this subforum so I've not seen this before. You might be confusing me with someone else.

The data looked a little old (30 years is a whole generation), so I went down the rabbit hole at the National Center for Education Statistics and while I couldn't find a newer version of the same study, I did eventually find this:

https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2018/2018088.pdf

According to students, teachers and counselors are really low on how influential they are on the student when it comes to career path (less than 10%), with family being the biggest influence at 49%. There is the really vague "myself" answer in second place though, which could hide all kinds of less conscious influence like school posters. So this kind of suggests that schools aren't having as much effect on students going to college anyway, even if they were pushing for it, but since it is a self-evaluation it's not super strong evidence.

I'm not even sure how to quantify how many kids to go university because the school pushed them into it but shouldn't have. Kids _should_ be pushed to get a degree if they are capable and plan to do a related career. My son wants to be a programmer and thinks he doesn't need a Computer Science degree. That's true, my company hires experienced programmers without degrees - but they pay them less for doing the same work as a degreed engineer. It's dumb but it's how the payscale works. So now he has to weigh up whether the short term gain is worth it, as well as losing out on the technical knowledge that he doesn't know he doesn't know. In the end it is his decision.

Which I guess is the important thing - are students empowered with the right information for them to make the best decision for themselves? Should we be actively discouraging the ones who are capable of completing a degree but still can't make the decision?
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