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Old 03-23-2024, 08:42 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
24,124 posts, read 32,498,125 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitt Chick View Post
True enough, college is NOT for everyone.

But the title "You don't need to go to college to find your dream job, 'degree free' entrepreneur says" then is incorrect.... if you dream job is being a doctor, being a lawyer. being an engineer, being a nurse, etc.
Exactly. Maybe you dream job is one of the multitude of people who want to do ANY JOB I have ever had since I have been an adult. They are not EVERYONE'S DREAM JOBS. They were MY DREAM JOBS.

They ALL required AT LEAST a BA. One career, registered nursing, can be done with an associate degree as I type. However, plans are in the works to force associate degree nurses - ADNs - five years to obtain their BSNs. If they do not return for their bachelor's degrees, they will be unable to work.

After nursing I worked as an adoption facilitator. The agency required a BA in anything, in order to work for them. All of the Eastern European employees had master's degrees,

Both nursing and working in the adoption field were jobs that I dreamed of.

After international adoption dried up about ten years ago, I did not want to return to nursing. When my children were in High School were looking for, and applying to colleges, I learned about the college consulting field. It really interested me, and I have a passion for helping students and their families select a college or university that suits their needs - not only educationally, but socially.
Many people are only familiar with "name brand" colleges, especially those who are first generation parents. The know their state universities, local colleges and famous colleges like Harvard.

To become a college admissions advisor, I needed a master's degree - in anything. It could be art, or engineering. You need a masters.

Now I have returned to school to get a second masters. I want to do something different. that is my new "Dream Job".

The point is, not everyone's dream job can be obtained with a certificate from a trade school. And what if, in ten yerars, they HATE that job?

In my extended family, everyone is expected to obtain AT LEAST a BA/S. After that, if you want to learn a trade, you are free to do that.

After college.

No degree is as flexible as a BA in terms of job security, social mobility, and the ability to change and build upon what you have learned.

In order to get a job with the city, state or local government, a bachelor's degree is a necessity,

This demand is not going away. In fact, having a BA is pretty much entry level into the middle class and in the future, it will be a necessity.

I just wish people would stop arguing about this subject. It isn't going away.
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Old 03-24-2024, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Central Ohio
10,834 posts, read 14,941,887 times
Reputation: 16587
There are things out there that many people might not even be aware they exist.

I did graduate from high school but that is about it.

I design fire sprinkler systems for schools, hospitals, stores, offices and storage facilities and am licensed in Vermont, Ohio, South Caroline, Georgia, Alabama and Florida. As far as education requirements go high school does it all.

I am certified as a Senior Level Technician (aka NICET IV) by NICET or the National Institute for the Certification of Engineering Technicians which is a Division of the National Society of Professional Engineers.

Water-Based Systems Layout comprises four levels of certification.

Level I is designed for trainees and entry-level technicians who perform limited job tasks under frequent supervision.
Level II is for technicians who perform routine tasks under general daily supervision.
Level III is for technicians who can work independently with standards, plans, and specifications to produce complete plans for typical/standard systems for approval.
Level IV is for senior-level technicians whose work includes complex or specialized systems and supervision of others.

Most states are like Illinois that require at lease one person at each company, or branch office, to hold either a Professional Engineers license or a NICET III or IV Certification.

Quote:
(225 ILCS 317/20)
Sec. 20. Designated certified person requirements; change of a designated certified person.
(a) A designated certified person shall either be a current Illinois licensed professional engineer pursuant to the Professional Engineering Practice Act of 1989 or hold a valid NICET Level III or higher certification in water-based fire protection systems layout.
(b) At least one member of every firm, association, or partnership and at least one officer of every corporation engaged in the service of fire sprinkler systems shall be a designated certified person.
(c) A designated certified person shall be employed by the fire sprinkler contractor at each business location with a valid license.
So you can hold a professional engineers license or be the holder of a NICET III or IV certificate.

Nearly all states have very close the same requirements.

So what do I do at my job?

I use AutoCAD to design the systems so a solid 80% of my time is spent in the office at my desk but my guess today is a solid half of designers work from home like I do.

What is pay like? From Talent.com the average annual salary is $72,241

Based on 1119 salaries
The average nicet salary in the USA is $72,241 per year or $34.73 per hour. Entry level positions start at $63,375 per year while most experienced workers make up to $107,634 per year. Most Level IV's I know earn close to six figures, have a company car with full benefits.

Based on my experience that is pretty accurate.

How hard is it to get a job? I am 75 years old (not kidding), still working full time and if I needed another job tomorrow morning I would have an interview set up by noon and a job office in hand within 48 hours. The ONLY thing that matters to any employer is the NICET Certification because in this industry it is the only thing that matters. If you have the NICET certification you'll take about as long as a registered nurse to find a job.

How hard is it to obtain certification? You to have a minimum of 5 years verifiable experience to take the Level III test and 10 years verifiable experience to take the Level IV test.

To pass the Level IV testing you're looking at about four days of written testing. The written tests are extremely hard to pass with a failure rate of 85%. Tests are made up by professional engineers and experience NICET certified designers and I don't want the test to be easy. Our responsibility is to protect lives.

If this looks interesting how do you get into this field?

I would go to a local community college and take one year in learning how to use AutoCAD. Actually most companies seem to be using AutoSprink but that program ends up costing in the ten digit range so AutoCAD will give you a start.

Next thing to do is purchase copies ofNFPA #13 from the National Fire Protection Association. It is the handbook most everyone around the world follows.

Learn what you can by using the web and reading up. Here's an idea of the sort of stuff you will end up learning FM Global Property Loss Prevention Data Sheets 8-9. That is not NFPA #13 that is from Factory Mutual Data Sheets but it gives you a good idea of the sort of thing you will be learning.

If you take 1 year of AutoCAD training, learn what NFPA #13 is and a little bit about it and are able to mention what NICET is all about and express your interest in being a designer my guess is you will be hired on your very first job interview. Just a young new guy, or young lady, just walking in off the street and being able to tell them you know what NFPA #13 is will have everyone's full attention.

Serous about the young lady. You want a perfect job this is it.
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Old 03-24-2024, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Where clams are a pizza topping
524 posts, read 247,252 times
Reputation: 1544
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Exactly. Maybe you dream job is one of the multitude of people who want to do ANY JOB I have ever had since I have been an adult. They are not EVERYONE'S DREAM JOBS. They were MY DREAM JOBS.

They ALL required AT LEAST a BA. One career, registered nursing, can be done with an associate degree as I type. However, plans are in the works to force associate degree nurses - ADNs - five years to obtain their BSNs. If they do not return for their bachelor's degrees, they will be unable to work.

After nursing I worked as an adoption facilitator. The agency required a BA in anything, in order to work for them. All of the Eastern European employees had master's degrees,

Both nursing and working in the adoption field were jobs that I dreamed of.

After international adoption dried up about ten years ago, I did not want to return to nursing. When my children were in High School were looking for, and applying to colleges, I learned about the college consulting field. It really interested me, and I have a passion for helping students and their families select a college or university that suits their needs - not only educationally, but socially.
Many people are only familiar with "name brand" colleges, especially those who are first generation parents. The know their state universities, local colleges and famous colleges like Harvard.

To become a college admissions advisor, I needed a master's degree - in anything. It could be art, or engineering. You need a masters.

Now I have returned to school to get a second masters. I want to do something different. that is my new "Dream Job".

The point is, not everyone's dream job can be obtained with a certificate from a trade school. And what if, in ten yerars, they HATE that job?

In my extended family, everyone is expected to obtain AT LEAST a BA/S. After that, if you want to learn a trade, you are free to do that.

After college.

No degree is as flexible as a BA in terms of job security, social mobility, and the ability to change and build upon what you have learned.

In order to get a job with the city, state or local government, a bachelor's degree is a necessity,

This demand is not going away. In fact, having a BA is pretty much entry level into the middle class and in the future, it will be a necessity.

I just wish people would stop arguing about this subject. It isn't going away.
^^Yup. I have always advised my children that their dream job at 19 may not be their dream job at 39. Hell, their dream job may not exist yet, but they need to be prepared for it.

I have two in college right now. One wants to be a social worker and the other just switched from psychology (wanted to be a therapist, like his dad) to visual arts. Even if they don’t end up in their respective fields long term, that bachelors degree is an insurance policy that will help them pivot to something else later on.


I don’t want to completely dismiss the advice of this Tic-Tocker because it certainly is applicable to some, but shoot, I thought I was doing well at 26 without a college degree, too. But, doors start closing the older you get.

Last edited by Hearthcrafter; 03-24-2024 at 02:54 PM..
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Old 03-24-2024, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,855 posts, read 24,359,728 times
Reputation: 32978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hearthcrafter View Post
^^Yup. I have always advised my children that their dream job at 19 may not be their dream job at 39. Hell, their dream job may not exist yet, but they need to be prepared for it.

I have two in college right now. One wants to be a social worker and the other just switched from psychology (wanted to be a therapist, like his dad) to visual arts. Even if they don’t end up in their respective fields long term, that bachelors degree is an insurance policy that will help them pivot to something else later on.


I don’t want to completely dismiss the advice of this Tic-Tocker because it certainly is applicable to some, but shoot, I thought I was doing well at 26 without a college degree, too. But, doors start closing the older you get.
Good post!

As a school principal, albeit middle school, we never pushed kids to go to college. Our middle school had 2 full time shop teachers and 2 home ec teachers, although over the years home ec fell out of favor (although not by me...kids just stopped signing up for it). Similarly, the high school had some vo-tech courses, although some students funneled into another high school that had a larger vo-tech program.

If kids asked me, "Should I go to college?", I was very careful to give a vague answer. It wasn't yes or no. It was a simple suggestion to keep their options open. Take courses that will at least give you the option of applying to college if you wish to. That it's usually much harder to reopen a door once you've closed it behind you.
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Old 03-24-2024, 05:33 PM
 
Location: Knoxville, TN
11,507 posts, read 6,021,967 times
Reputation: 22561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitt Chick View Post
Has always been an option in my area... vo-tech school are booming.
Do you not have any where you live?
It is not that high school kids lack options. It is that high school students are not taught they have options. I is all pretty much college prep. How do kids know about vocational schools if they are never directed to one. In any event, it should be a basic part of the high school curriculum. Options to academia should be discussed for those students who don't see an academic future for themselves.

I went to high school in the 1970s. I knew I was on a college track, but I still had to take wood shop and metal shop, learned arc welding and oxy-acetylene welding. We had an autoshop class. I don't think we had a full boat carpentry class, but we should have. We should have had electrician classes too.

That is what I am talking about. Not everybody is cut out for college.
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Old 03-24-2024, 07:01 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
24,124 posts, read 32,498,125 times
Reputation: 68384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitt Chick View Post
Has always been an option in my area... vo-tech school are booming.
Do you not have any where you live?
In NY BOCES exists in every school district in the state. You can be trained as a cosmetologist, welder, auto repair, HVAC, plumbing, construction trades, dental assistant or practical nurse.

It would be hard to live in NYS on a cosmetologist's salary, unless you are living at home.

Unless you have a family plumbing business, that's a hard trade to enter. I know this though a personal experience with a friend.

Dental assistants don't make enough either. Practical nursing is probably the best, I *think* about 30 an hour. Both of the last two can be translated into dental hygienist or registered nurse.

I know someone who is now a OBGYN Nurse practitioner who started in BOCES's LPN program. Her BSN and MSN degrees involved universities.
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Old 03-24-2024, 07:08 PM
 
Location: WA
5,452 posts, read 7,749,413 times
Reputation: 8555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Igor Blevin View Post
It is not that high school kids lack options. It is that high school students are not taught they have options. I is all pretty much college prep. How do kids know about vocational schools if they are never directed to one. In any event, it should be a basic part of the high school curriculum. Options to academia should be discussed for those students who don't see an academic future for themselves.

I went to high school in the 1970s. I knew I was on a college track, but I still had to take wood shop and metal shop, learned arc welding and oxy-acetylene welding. We had an autoshop class. I don't think we had a full boat carpentry class, but we should have. We should have had electrician classes too.

That is what I am talking about. Not everybody is cut out for college.
Not in this part of the country (SW Washington). There are a vast variety of CTE and VoTech options for HS students through both the local high schools and community colleges (which offer free courses to HS students who are juniors and seniors). And they are heavily promoted along with the usual college prep tracks. For example, the district where I teach runs this separate VoTech campus where students can enroll part time (while still attending their home campus) or full time: https://www.cascadiatechnicalacademy.org/
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Old 03-24-2024, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,855 posts, read 24,359,728 times
Reputation: 32978
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
In NY BOCES exists in every school district in the state. You can be trained as a cosmetologist, welder, auto repair, HVAC, plumbing, construction trades, dental assistant or practical nurse.

It would be hard to live in NYS on a cosmetologist's salary, unless you are living at home.

Unless you have a family plumbing business, that's a hard trade to enter. I know this though a personal experience with a friend.

Dental assistants don't make enough either. Practical nursing is probably the best, I *think* about 30 an hour. Both of the last two can be translated into dental hygienist or registered nurse.

I know someone who is now a OBGYN Nurse practitioner who started in BOCES's LPN program. Her BSN and MSN degrees involved universities.
Let's be realistic here. BOCES is not in each district. It is where a group of districts work together to offer sort of vo-tech programs. For example, Palmyra-Macedon District (where I was from) kids had to take a bus quite a distance back then to attend the BOCES program in other districts.
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Old 03-24-2024, 11:01 PM
 
12,852 posts, read 9,067,991 times
Reputation: 34942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Igor Blevin View Post
It is not that high school kids lack options. It is that high school students are not taught they have options. I is all pretty much college prep. How do kids know about vocational schools if they are never directed to one. In any event, it should be a basic part of the high school curriculum. Options to academia should be discussed for those students who don't see an academic future for themselves.

I went to high school in the 1970s. I knew I was on a college track, but I still had to take wood shop and metal shop, learned arc welding and oxy-acetylene welding. We had an autoshop class. I don't think we had a full boat carpentry class, but we should have. We should have had electrician classes too.

That is what I am talking about. Not everybody is cut out for college.
Interesting you mention that because that's how it worked when I went to school -- on the college track but still had to take shop.

When I look back, throughout my life I've used the algebra; I've used the geometry; I've used the trig; I've used the skills I learned in shop; I've used typing; I've even used history and geography. You know what I've never used? All that time spent in Lit, and diagramming sentences, and poetry, and art (such as it was). Those classes I got everything I needed by 9th grade but still spent the rest of high school as well as my Gen Eds in college on them. More time on them than anything outside my major. Yet never used them. Use the shop skills all the time. That's the great irony.
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Old 03-25-2024, 03:49 AM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
24,124 posts, read 32,498,125 times
Reputation: 68384
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Let's be realistic here. BOCES is not in each district. It is where a group of districts work together to offer sort of vo-tech programs. For example, Palmyra-Macedon District (where I was from) kids had to take a bus quite a distance back then to attend the BOCES program in other districts.
It may cover several districts, but I do not know of ANY public school in NYS that does not have access to BOCES.

No. BOCES is not in the High School building and the BOCES students are mixed with college bound students. There is one exception - Sewanahaka High School in Floral Park. All of the students are enrolled in BOCES (Vocational Education) programs, to my knowledge. At Sewanahka all students attend BOCES. Still, most do have to leave the campus to learn their trades. I am sure that you are aware that trade school training requires more than just a classroom and a desk.

The Learning Labs are specific to the trade that is being taught.

It would not be economically practical for each district to maintain two High Schools in each trade. It would be fiscally and logistically impossible.

Yes. They are bussed to a BOCES center that is in their county.

Yours is actually the first complaint I have ever heard that a bus is provided to transport vocational students from their academic High School. to their vocational center.

The BOCES program is a model of vocational education. The student receives a
regular High School diploma that does not exclude them from additional education, should they choose to obtain it. At the same time, they learn a trade at no additional expense to their families.

This is a far superior situation to attending 4 years of High School, with little interest in accademics, and no current interest in college and take out massive loans after public high school graduation to get a low paying job. A neighbor of mine did this, and after graduation, her parents paid tuition for her to get a certificate in medical assisting.

Unless your husband or wife is the physician, medical assistants are poorly compensated.

I think the bus ride would have been worth it.

BOCES does a fantastic job. I have lived in two other states as an adult, PA and OH, and neither has a program that comes close that is available state wide.
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