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Old 03-27-2024, 02:31 PM
 
1,499 posts, read 1,674,386 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarryKnight1 View Post
Which is probably why schools should probably stop pushing the “everyone goes to college” mentality, if they haven’t already.
People seem to be saying that it is the case, but they don't say how they know this, so I think they are probably just blowing smoke.

I have two highschool-age kids. My local high school has both vocational and college options. Many high schoolers graduate with a job waiting for them with paid technical training, all arranged by partnerships with local companies. On the other end, many graduate high school with enough college credits to have an associates degree, which is worth two years of a full college degree.

I don't know how common this is in other states, but I'd be surprised if this was not common in any metro area at the very least.
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Old 03-27-2024, 07:46 PM
 
Location: WA
5,452 posts, read 7,749,413 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmition View Post
People seem to be saying that it is the case, but they don't say how they know this, so I think they are probably just blowing smoke.

I have two highschool-age kids. My local high school has both vocational and college options. Many high schoolers graduate with a job waiting for them with paid technical training, all arranged by partnerships with local companies. On the other end, many graduate high school with enough college credits to have an associates degree, which is worth two years of a full college degree.

I don't know how common this is in other states, but I'd be surprised if this was not common in any metro area at the very least.
It is common here in Washington.
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Old 03-28-2024, 01:05 AM
 
Location: In the elevator!
835 posts, read 478,242 times
Reputation: 1422
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
It wasn't one size fits all. We didn't expect equal results from our regular ed kids, our special ed kids, and our gifted ed kids.

But I'll tell you one thing that we discovered at our school...which btw was in the top 10% of the state...in fact, often in the top 5%. That the NCLB test scores for our special ed kids were at a certain level in elementary school, then dropped significantly at our school, then went back up when they went on to high school.

And just in case you're implying NCLB was a liberal pipe dream, it was instituted by the Bush administration and ended under the Obama administration.
NCLB is widely regarded by most publications, scholars, et al, as one size fits all. That’s not up for debate, that’s the fact of the matter. It makes no difference that your one school may have been different.

I’m not sure why you’re attempting to bait and hijack this thread into politics with the last sentence, but just in case it wasn’t clear, I’m apolitical, which, if you weren’t aware, means I’m on neither end of that spectrum. But let’s try to keep this thread to education, and not partisan politics, which have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
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Old 03-28-2024, 05:25 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,581 posts, read 28,687,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye77 View Post
Because they (student) believe it does have value.

Why did you go to college?
I went to college because the job or career I wanted required a specific degree to be qualified.

I knew almost exactly what my starting salary range would be once I graduated, and also how lucrative the degree was.

If that weren’t the case, I would have never gone to college.

If I simply wanted to be educated or gain knowledge, I could spend hours at the Library of Congress in DC or something.
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Old 03-28-2024, 05:36 AM
 
Location: Knoxville, TN
2,538 posts, read 1,913,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
I went to college because the job or career I wanted required a specific degree to be qualified.

I knew almost exactly what my starting salary range would be once I graduated, and also how lucrative the degree was.

If that weren’t the case, I would have never gone to college.

Why would I? If I simply wanted to be educated or gain knowledge, I could spend hours at the Library of Congress or something.
I am wondering how much you took advantage of what your college offered since you don't mention internships. lecture series, service clubs, personal/business connections made, leadership programs or any of the other growth opportunities offered by colleges. You don't get any of that from sitting by yourself reading books.
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Old 03-28-2024, 05:44 AM
 
Location: Knoxville, TN
2,538 posts, read 1,913,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxic Waltz View Post
In my state, in state tuition for a state university is $20,000 a year, and rising annually. That's an $80,000 debt for tuition alone if you get a 4 year degree. It's much higher in many states and most private universities will also cost much more. If you're taking on that kind of debt you better be taking a practical major that will lead you where you want to go career wise. All the other crap largely involves indoctrination nowadays and is more of a bug than a feature, but it's endurable if it gets you where you need to be. Plenty of Starbuck's baristas have learned a harsh lesson about how valuable getting a "well rounded indoctrination" with no real plan for your future really is. I am not against higher education, I'm against doing it for the sake of doing it, and don't think modern economics justifies that approach.

I understand the math is much different in wealthy families that intend to finance their children's educations and I understand athletes and academic scholars with scholarships will see things differently. In the latter case especially though they are likely going in to it with a plan and coming out of it with less of a debt hanging over their heads.
"All the other crap largely involves indoctrination nowadays.." This is the mindset pushed by political operatives who are more set on turning out worker bees than critical thinkers. If you look at facts, the economics do indeed justify attending college. Of course, there are people who are wildly successful without it and those with a degree who don't earn much, but as a rule, obtaining a degree pays off.

"Bachelor’s degree holders earn a median of $2.8 million during their career, 75% more than if they had only a high school diploma. " From a 2021 study by the McCourt School of Public Policy.
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Old 03-28-2024, 06:36 AM
 
Location: Central Mass
4,630 posts, read 4,902,554 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
You seem to be suggesting it is okay to spend $80,000 or even $200,000 on a degree that doesn't get you a good job or career as long as you can end up reading Homer in the original Greek and recite it backwards or something like that.
It is OK.
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Old 03-28-2024, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,542 posts, read 2,691,004 times
Reputation: 13110
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOinGA View Post
"All the other crap largely involves indoctrination nowadays.." This is the mindset pushed by political operatives who are more set on turning out worker bees than critical thinkers. If you look at facts, the economics do indeed justify attending college. Of course, there are people who are wildly successful without it and those with a degree who don't earn much, but as a rule, obtaining a degree pays off.

"Bachelor’s degree holders earn a median of $2.8 million during their career, 75% more than if they had only a high school diploma. " From a 2021 study by the McCourt School of Public Policy.
But statements like that mix all the data together. Neurosurgeons, mechanical engineers who own consulting companies, and applied mathematicians working for the CIA are all holders of bachelor's degrees.

Let's see a fair comparison. Take out of the data everyone who holds a bachelor's degree that's required for entry into a technical field, take out everyone who holds a bachelor's degree AND a subsequent professional degree (attorneys, for example), take out everyone who holds a bachelor's degree that's required for a non-technical field (teachers), and so on. Leave in only those who hold bachelor's degrees and are working in fields where a bachelor's degree is not required. The French Renaissance poetry major who's working as a public school French teacher - you can't include her, because she couldn't hold that job without a degree. The French Renaissance poetry major who's selling pants at Dillard's, or working in the call center, or serving coffee at Sawbucks - THAT's the person whose income you compare against their non-degreed peers - and I'll bet you'll find far less income advantage from that degree than is presented by the mixed data that include the surgeons engineers and CIA operatives.
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Old 03-28-2024, 07:10 AM
 
Location: Knoxville, TN
2,538 posts, read 1,913,014 times
Reputation: 6432
They already parsed some of that out. "Master’s degree holders earn a median of $3.2 million over their lifetimes, while doctoral degree holders earn $4 million and professional degree holders earn $4.7 million." That is from the same study. You can stretch as much as you want and it won't change the fact that degree holders, as a group earn more. And it doesn't really matter if the degree is a direct preparation for their current job. Maybe it was the personal growth they went through by going to college, or a contact they made, or an inspiration to pursue a field they never would have thought of before that led them to the higher earnings. College is not vocational school. It was never meant to be. Of course, we want to see everyone be able to earn a living, but there is no need to denigrate a college education in order to recognize the value of a skilled person who goes into the trades.
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Old 03-28-2024, 07:38 AM
 
12,852 posts, read 9,067,991 times
Reputation: 34942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmition View Post
People seem to be saying that it is the case, but they don't say how they know this, so I think they are probably just blowing smoke.
.
You asked about the pushing of "college for everyone." The statement below is one of the big parts of that whole push -- presented to kids from elementary up as a fact, yet without context. And the lack of context means it's really a fallacy like equivocation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOinGA View Post
"Bachelor’s degree holders earn a median of $2.8 million during their career, 75% more than if they had only a high school diploma. " From a 2021 study by the McCourt School of Public Policy.
While the raw data in the statement may be true, Rabbit33 already provided a lot of reason why the statement creates a false belief. Let's look in general. A key reason why degree holders, esp those in some fields as Rabbit33 provided is because there are a limited number of holders of those degrees.

The statement on its own implies that if everyone got a bachelor's degree, everyone would make $2.8 million more during a career. But that doesn't mean there will actually be that many jobs requiring a bachelor's degree. In reality that many people with degree's would lower the value of the degree to where everyone would make less.

Put simply, if everyone had a college degree, then we'd have college degreed burger flippers.
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