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Old 05-16-2024, 06:44 AM
 
12,909 posts, read 9,168,707 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
I don't buy that even a little. When we import ~25/27% of our medical doctors and even higher percentages of our medical researchers and who knows what percentage of IT types and others in STEM areas there is no over emphasis on STEM. In fact all from business leaders to The DOD and academics tell us we fall far short in tech/STEM ready high school and college graduates.


We need net new people well able to rebuild downed bridges, secure our networks, treat cancer, brain bleeds and dislocated hips more than we need net new people able to quote Chaucer, spell with ease/alacrity, deconstruct Francis Bacon or out grammar others.


.
Good input. I agree. I find it interesting that those who think there is too much STEM emphasis forget the first word is Science and the last is Math. Both key core sets of knowedge.

And to the title of this thread, sorry if the grammar isn't perfect. I'm fat fingering this on my phone while traveling.
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Old 05-16-2024, 08:37 AM
 
19,985 posts, read 18,275,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by margaretBartle View Post
There has been a massive propaganda campaign since the early 90s that the US needs to import STEM workers because there aren't enough Americans to do the work.
Meanwhile, 54% of the people getting a bachelor's degree in a STEM field cannot find work in the first year out of college, and sten yeras later, 45% are still not working in their field.
Adjunct professors, many of whom have masters, a quarter of whom have Ph.Ds get no benefits, and low pay, but make up about half the instructors int he California Community colleges.
I don't want to get too heavy on the details, - if you care, it's a fun rabbit-hole to follow some evening with your favorite search engine (I'm posting this at 2 in the morning!).
As a retired techie, I've been involved with many groups over the past 40 years, and have been following the discussions.
There are several reasons companies like to hire foreign guestworkers instead of Americans, and that is why you see so many foreign workers. Most of them come in on an H1-b visa. Later they often get their green cards. The number in the recent years is much lower than in the past, but it's still millions of workers. The h1-b visa belongs to the company, not the worker, so the company doesn't have to worry about getting their worker poached That's very important.
Plus, of course, the imported workers are cheaper.

Another reason that isn't reported on, but I've seen first=hand, is that biased hiring is very strong in the companies that bring in foreign guest workers. In foreign countries, it is considered patriotic to be prejudiced in favor of your fellow-country people. When a company based overseas gets a foothold in a US company, they will always favor the imported worker over the American workers.
I remember waiting with an Indian worker at a big computer company where we needed to get in a secured building in which we were attending a meeting and could not get the attention of the meeting co-ordinator. We were stuck outside. No worry - we'll just wait for someone to let us in. As a group of employees approached us, he said, "No, they're Chinese, they won't let us in." After a few minutes, some Indians went in to the building and didn't think twice about letting us in.

That patriotic comraderie of foreign guest workers is very powerful, affects American workers negatively, and no one speaks about it.
A. We import 23-25%* (the spread depends on the source and precise definitions and the year**) of our doctors and even higher percentages of our medical researchers that's not propaganda but fact. Congress through medicare + some private sources funds X number of medical residencies in order to populate our medical system with enough docs. The problem is we cannot graduate enough native born students who meet medicare/federal standards (USMLE Step 1 and 2, rotation testing etc.) yielding right at X - 25% every year for many years into the past.

*If we include Canadian rising residents that number increases 2 or 3%.

**This year the FMG/IMG to total residency numbers work out like this 9045/38854 = 23%+.....source National Residency Matching Program (I believe these are first day match numbers the final percentage may be very slightly different).

2. Your second point does not well support your first/thesis claim.
1. I doubt seriously 54% percent of STEM grads cannot find any work 12 mos. out. If you meant in their study area OK.....the let's work though that.
A. According to the NCER lots of STEM grads go into areas designated as non-STEM fields with intent. business, teaching, social sciences, sales, law enforcement, law etc. 18% of law students have STEM degrees.
B. For many decades undergraduate degrees have not bound students much.
C. Per A. I could yammer on and on with anecdotes per friends, colleagues, employees and relatives who have successfully rotated away from their STEM studies but I'll leave that for another time.

D. I'm not sure how it relates to your overall point but I've been an adjunct. The pay and benefits are awful because many adjuncts work part time and if one quits there are two or three or in some cities ten ready to fill the spot.

G. I haven't formulated a theory but it's odd to me that people who claim there are no shortages within STEM ALWAYS rail against H-1B holders.
1. She's finally going to completely retire later this year....my wife has been a CIO for 20+ years. She's told me stories about nepotism, Kashmir like problems, women treated as second class etc.
2. Unrelated to my wife I know an ex-H-1B holding physician who terrorized his American wife after she became pregnant with their second daughter. He blamed her for not given him a son......think about the X,Y - X,X bit works and the insane irony of a male physician blaming his wife for carrying a female baby.

P. As a bit of an aside. The point needs to be made that certain areas within STEM do not have shortages. Biology, lower level IT/CS, certain areas in engineering to name a few. Other areas have gross homegrown shortages generally at the upper levels per credentials MDs, DOs, several research areas, certain areas within engineering generally as the MS and Ph.D levels etc.


On one hand we have H-1B haters and a few others who claim the STEM shortage/STEM preparedness arguments are bunk. On the other we have business, business groups, the DOD + every single military branch, the BLS/NBER and all manner of relativistic analysis comparing The US to China, India and even Russia showing a proportional STEM field readiness gap and maybe worse grossly math and science deficient high school grad cadres.


Please excuse the typos and overall clunkiness. My glasses are elsewhere.
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Old 05-16-2024, 02:41 PM
 
1,505 posts, read 1,686,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by margaretBartle View Post
I'm not talking about people posting comments, or social media or other informal writing, I'm talking about headline writers and authors of mainstream news organizations who are being paid as professionals.
You might be assuming too far here. Journalism isn't what it used to be - quality writers aren't taking the low paid internet news jobs and quality editors aren't checking it before it gets published. Internet news is barely hanging in there with the underqualified staff they have, the revenue is extremely low. If you want quality journalism by good writers then you need to have a paid subscription or something supported at a loss by a larger media organization, not the free ad-supported stuff where clicks are more important than correct information.
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Old 05-16-2024, 11:24 PM
 
Location: New York NY
5,530 posts, read 8,809,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post


….We need net new people well able to rebuild downed bridges, secure our networks, treat cancer, brain bleeds and dislocated hips more than we need net new people able to quote Chaucer, spell with ease/alacrity, deconstruct Francis Bacon or out grammar others.


Over the last couple of decades when I've needed or wanted great letters, and that's been fairly often........I got that done one of three ways.

A. I paid my admin's daughter $15 (was $10 and then $12 years ago) per page to decipher my recorded words* into letters.

B. When it mattered more I payed my lawyer's admin. $250-$750 per letter.

C. Very important business letters were written by my lawyers. With outline level input by me.

*I'm a much better speaker than writer.
Geez, what an ignorant narrow-minded rant. You just don’t get that scientists and engineers are wonderful about discovering and inventing things, but they’re pretty much useless in determining how those things are used, distributed, and affect us all. It’s great that a scientist invents a vaccine, but who gets to have it? Everybody’s in favor of bridges that don’t fall down, but who gets to say where it’s built, who uses it, and who pays for it? Internet that spawns social media platforms can be wonderful. But the techies don’t decide who gets it, what’s allowed on it and how much it costs.


Scientists and engineers give us tools. That’s all. Just tools. How to use those tools is up to us Chaucer-reading, grammatically correct, letter-writing deconstructionists with a deep knowledge of history, philosophy, psychology, law, politics, and the rest of the non-STEM subjects. (You know. Those of us who don’t have to pay a high school kid to write a letter for us.) Ideally, both camps would work together. But that’s obviously not the case very often. And it probably never will be when one side keeps boasting that it’s indispensable while the other side contributes little of value.

That’s what I fear is happening now in the US in general, and in educational circles in particular. No balance— which is what I tried to get to in posting in this thread about lousy writers in public spaces. Capiche?
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Old 05-20-2024, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Southern MN
12,123 posts, read 8,520,157 times
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Good communication is the basis for civilization, I think. But we need proficiency in all disciplines. It honestly pains me to hear people misusing the language.

I really just want to rant here but suppose it's more useful to say people should know how to say what they mean and listeners should know how to understand what it is being said. So we need to know more than just the mechanics of our language but also how to facilitate good communication. That would be with good dialogue, interaction, an exchange for clarity's sake.

I take in a lot of podcasts these days for my information and my number one pet peeve is the use of sophisticated language without the ability to correctly pronounce. Sometimes I have trouble understanding what is being said because people who make their living speaking can't be bothered to take a second for a click to pronounce a word correctly.

I hear coughing, snuffling, burping, dawgs barking and babies crying while something is being recorded. And please don't bother to go into the business if your voice is shrill, you speak run together sentences or slur your words.
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Old 05-20-2024, 09:27 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
7,355 posts, read 5,254,677 times
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...and don't get me started on Up-speak, this newer trend of raising the voice at the end of what should be a declarative statement with voce lowerd.....I think it comes from the indoctrination process in schools....Kids are asked a question and then spout back something, raising the voice implying "Is that what you wanted me to say?"

Now, it's common custom even among lecturers or others supposedly transmitting authoritative info. No credibility. Are you telling us or asking us?
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Old 05-20-2024, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Sioux Falls, SD area
4,886 posts, read 6,980,042 times
Reputation: 10250
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
...and don't get me started on Up-speak, this newer trend of raising the voice at the end of what should be a declarative statement with voce lowerd.....I think it comes from the indoctrination process in schools....Kids are asked a question and then spout back something, raising the voice implying "Is that what you wanted me to say?"

Now, it's common custom even among lecturers or others supposedly transmitting authoritative info. No credibility. Are you telling us or asking us?
Years ago that was called "Valley Girls" lingo where every statement sounds like it ends in a question. Saturday Night Live even had skits making fun of it. I think it's even more prevalent now than back in the day.

When young women talk like that it consistently diminishes many people's opinion as to their intelligence.
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Old 05-22-2024, 07:17 AM
 
19,985 posts, read 18,275,157 times
Reputation: 17413
Quote:
Originally Posted by citylove101 View Post
Geez, what an ignorant narrow-minded rant. You just don’t get that scientists and engineers are wonderful about discovering and inventing things, but they’re pretty much useless in determining how those things are used, distributed, and affect us all. It’s great that a scientist invents a vaccine, but who gets to have it? Everybody’s in favor of bridges that don’t fall down, but who gets to say where it’s built, who uses it, and who pays for it? Internet that spawns social media platforms can be wonderful. But the techies don’t decide who gets it, what’s allowed on it and how much it costs.


Scientists and engineers give us tools. That’s all. Just tools. How to use those tools is up to us Chaucer-reading, grammatically correct, letter-writing deconstructionists with a deep knowledge of history, philosophy, psychology, law, politics, and the rest of the non-STEM subjects. (You know. Those of us who don’t have to pay a high school kid to write a letter for us.) Ideally, both camps would work together. But that’s obviously not the case very often. And it probably never will be when one side keeps boasting that it’s indispensable while the other side contributes little of value.

That’s what I fear is happening now in the US in general, and in educational circles in particular. No balance— which is what I tried to get to in posting in this thread about lousy writers in public spaces. Capiche?
I had decided to ignore your rant but instead I'll limit my rebuttal to a few comments.

1. Exactly nowhere did I write or imply that my admin's. daughter was in high school. When I first met her she was in graduate school......she crafted letters from dictation as a side hustle.

1.1. For decades I've owned and managed multiple businesses employing hundreds of people at a time, working 70-90 hour weeks. I offloaded formal letter writing to save time not per lack of ability although I freely admit that writing is a relative weakness.

2. With no offense intended my point above stands. According to sources ranging from The Department of Defense to business and industry groups to academics and others we are not producing enough STEM ready HS and college grads.
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Old Today, 09:44 AM
 
7,464 posts, read 4,235,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citylove101 View Post
Egregious errors in publications or on TV screens happen, IMO, from a combination of reasons:

Many younger folks were never taught grammar and spelling in their K-12 years. Parsing sentences is now often considered old-school and boring, and most kids don’t have to read much quality long-form nonfiction in school (where they’d be exposed to good writing). Add to that the rise of spell-check and grammar-checks on computers means they might never learn to write well at all. Too many youngsters think there’s no real difference between texting and writing. (Hey, as long as you know what it means, who cares how it’s spelled?) And yes, copy editing positions at many media outlets are being cut for cost reasons.

I’d add that the current emphasis on STEM subjects in so many schools has meant that many youngsters have devalued writing well because they believe it won’t lead to a high-paying job — so why bother? Put it all together and you have more and more young people with little respect for the English language.
All of this is too true!!!!

My daughter and cousin are high school English teachers. Both agree that younger folks are not longer taught grammar or spelling! It so difficult to teach high school English as students don't have the foundation for higher level (HS) work

Phonics were gone by the 1980's. It's nearly impossible to be a good speller if you never learned phonics. When my daughter taught middle school, she asked her students to sound out new words - they didn't have a clue!

Sentence Diagramming was no longer taught by the 1980's. It's a shame because students can not write on a high school level anymore.

Student no longer read anything longer than a fb post! It's horrifying! Social media has ruined a generation of readers. If you can't read long paragraphs or articles, it affect democracy.

YES, students think anything but STEM should be easy. Social studies and English shouldn't require work, therefore they don't have to put in any effort.

Great post citylove101!

EDS - both can be true - lousy English and lousy STEM education!
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