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Old 06-16-2024, 12:28 AM
 
Location: North Dakota
10,375 posts, read 14,090,961 times
Reputation: 18318

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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarryKnight1 View Post
Exactly. It would be like saying “I’m chewing cinderblocks” then calling someone pedantic who asked for clarification, before saying you really meant bubblegum. We have different words for a reason.

Trying to make sense of misnomers is hardly pedantic, although I realize that “pedantic” is the trendy word of today to belittle and downplay other posters.
I don't think people who miss the term groom have an understanding of multisyllabic words like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I hope you don't mind if I answer.

In my view, the real, unspoken goal of the voucher program in the eyes of many is to -- essentially -- re-segregate education.
It sure is. There seems to be a goal among conservatives to take us back about 70 years or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
I was quoting someone else. But if you want to be pedantic about the term "groom" then sure. However, in the recent culture war context it is the right that is misusing the term to refer to any sort of inclusiveness or recognition and accommodation of LGBT students on the part of schools. Allowing kids to use the name or pronoun of their choice is not "grooming" them.
By misusing the word groom or indoctrinate we take away the seriousness of them. It's interesting these are the same people who ignore the real grooming priests have been doing for years and want private schools that will, by definition, indoctrinate kids.
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Old 06-16-2024, 12:30 AM
 
Location: North Dakota
10,375 posts, read 14,090,961 times
Reputation: 18318
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarryKnight1 View Post
Exactly. It would be like saying “I’m chewing cinderblocks” then calling someone pedantic who asked for clarification, before saying you really meant bubblegum. We have different words for a reason.

Trying to make sense of misnomers is hardly pedantic, although I realize that “pedantic” is the trendy word of today to belittle and downplay other posters.
I don't think people who misuse the term groom have an understanding of multisyllabic words like pedantic and misnomer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I hope you don't mind if I answer.

In my view, the real, unspoken goal of the voucher program in the eyes of many is to -- essentially -- re-segregate education.
It sure is. There seems to be a goal among conservatives to take us back about 70 years or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
I was quoting someone else. But if you want to be pedantic about the term "groom" then sure. However, in the recent culture war context it is the right that is misusing the term to refer to any sort of inclusiveness or recognition and accommodation of LGBT students on the part of schools. Allowing kids to use the name or pronoun of their choice is not "grooming" them.
By misusing the word groom or indoctrinate we take away the seriousness of them. It's interesting these are the same people who ignore the real grooming priests have been doing for years and want private schools that will, by definition, indoctrinate kids.
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Old 06-16-2024, 02:56 AM
 
Location: In the elevator!
876 posts, read 495,283 times
Reputation: 1499
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
I was responding sarcastically to the general usage of the term in conservative circles where the term is weaponized to attack any teacher, curriculum, or accommodation that even hints at recognition that LGBT students exist. And to attack the notion that they deserve and have a right to be treated with the same respect as we treat all other students.

I would be perfectly happy if usage of the term was limited to the narrow parameters that you define. It would be a step forward.

But carry on. The Oxford comma and "irregardless" need your attention next.
There are shorter ways to say “I’m wrong”, and probably with much less effort.

Although you not admitting you’re wrong doesn’t mean everybody else doesn’t see you using the term incorrectly. Your usage was correct in your own mind, and that’s about it.
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Old 06-16-2024, 08:02 AM
 
12,980 posts, read 9,255,806 times
Reputation: 35274
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
I object to vouchers as they are being implemented by red states because they are, in fact, little more than a massive welfare program for the wealthy at the expense of the public schools that educate 90% of the children in those states. Which is what this thread is about.

Way too many voucher advocates will complain about the "welfare state" in any other context but are willfully blind to the fact that school vouchers are nothing more than another form of taxpayer subsidized welfare program. And a much more egregious one since they rarely have any means testing whatsoever unlike traditional welfare programs such as food stamps and Medicaid.

Feel free to actually take issue with anything factual that I wrote above. Instead of handwringing about "tone". I do have the goods to support my points. Why are you taking this so personally? Am I hitting too close to home?

Now you are accusing me of arbitrary and discriminatory grading? Sheesh.
The tone you use comes across. And you should know that as a teacher. It can build up. It can tear down.

I take it personally because I care about the quality of education. As someone who receives the product of our education system and has to produce results. As someone who knows how vital an education is to our survival as a nation.

I take it personally because I know, and I have had, teachers who talk just like you do. And use their beliefs as a weapon in the classroom to "equalize" the outcomes by rewarding those they deem worthy and penalizing those they don't. Where "worthy" is determined by the teacher's view of their SES.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I hope you don't mind if I answer.

In my view, the real, unspoken goal of the voucher program in the eyes of many is to -- essentially -- re-segregate education.
Dude, that is your own prejudices talking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Yes. The days of 'just trust us' are long over.
You are correct there. We don't trust you.
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Old 06-16-2024, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,465 posts, read 24,822,929 times
Reputation: 33330
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
The tone you use comes across. And you should know that as a teacher. It can build up. It can tear down.

I take it personally because I care about the quality of education. As someone who receives the product of our education system and has to produce results. As someone who knows how vital an education is to our survival as a nation.

I take it personally because I know, and I have had, teachers who talk just like you do. And use their beliefs as a weapon in the classroom to "equalize" the outcomes by rewarding those they deem worthy and penalizing those they don't. Where "worthy" is determined by the teacher's view of their SES.



Dude, that is your own prejudices talking.



You are correct there. We don't trust you.
No, I've actually heard people specifically say that. And, in a later post I provided some data. And even a recent Supreme Court justice made some iffy comments about the topic.

And it's okay that you don't trust us...because we don't trust you, either. But, remember, I'm in favor of merit pay (worked under it, liked it) and I'm in favor of required evaluation of schools (worked under it, liked it).
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Old 06-16-2024, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,465 posts, read 24,822,929 times
Reputation: 33330
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
"2002 A report from Harvard's Civil Rights Project concludes that America's schools are resegregating.

...

A study by Harvard's Civil Rights Project finds that schools were more segregated in 2000 than in 1970 when busing for desegregation began.

...

2007 In Parents Involved, the Supreme Court finds voluntary school integration plans unconstitutional, paving the way for contemporary school segregation to escalate."

From https://www.learningforjustice.org/m...tion-in-the-us
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Old 06-16-2024, 10:41 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,805 posts, read 18,838,010 times
Reputation: 35519
Humans naturally segregate themselves. Just look around you at neighborhoods. They want that.
It's the government that thinks there has to be forced diversity for everything to be "good".
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Old 06-16-2024, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,465 posts, read 24,822,929 times
Reputation: 33330
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
Humans naturally segregate themselves. Just look around you at neighborhoods. They want that.
It's the government that thinks there has to be forced diversity for everything to be "good".
Humans want lots of things...and they're not all good.

But, do you want segregated schools? Do you think segregated schools is what is best for America?

Last edited by phetaroi; 06-16-2024 at 12:49 PM..
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Old 06-16-2024, 12:56 PM
 
103 posts, read 22,216 times
Reputation: 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
First one has to define what the objectives are.

If voucher advocates are actually telling the truth, and the objective is to improve educational outcomes for children who can't otherwise afford private schools. Then the only way to measure that is to impose the same universal standardized testing requirements on private schools that accept vouchers as we impose on public schools. To measure if educational outcomes for those students actually improve.

One would also want to measure cost-effectiveness. What is the cost per child for those poor children who use vouchers to escape poorly rated public schools and attend private schools that they would otherwise be unable to afford? In other words, take the total cost of the program and divide by the number of poor children who are using it to "escape" poorly rated public schools and what do we get?

If voucher advocates are unwilling to do those two things that then it just gives lie to their claims. And the ACTUAL objectives are for reasons unrelated to educational outcomes.
I don’t see any clear objective other than the belief that moving a child from public to private will automatically improve scores. Same parents, possibly more talented teachers in public schools but they believe this is a positive. Very small percentage of public school students are using the program, largest benefactors are upper middle class and religious schools.
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Old 06-16-2024, 05:05 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,805 posts, read 18,838,010 times
Reputation: 35519
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Humans want lots of things...and they're not all good.

But, do you want segregated schools? Do you think segregated schools is what is best for America?
What's best for the people and the community counts more.
They have naturally gone back to segregated neighborhoods and schools.

The people have spoken.
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