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Old Yesterday, 03:42 PM
 
12,960 posts, read 9,222,341 times
Reputation: 35256

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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
This isn't actually true. And it isn't about parents. It is about the children.

EVERY child in this country deserves opportunity and a quality education. And our public policy should be oriented towards making that happen. Policies engineered to strip money away from the public schools that educate 90% of the nation's children and redistribute public dollars towards unaccountable private schools that educate a disproportionately wealthy 10% of the nation's population will not achieve that policy objective. They will wake things worse and reduce opportunity for the vast majority of students in this country.

The whole language of "school choice" is a fraud. We don't choose our police department, we don't choose our fire department. If we live in a smaller community we don't choose which hospital is closest to our house. We don't choose which highway department is maintaining our local roads. We are entitled to demand that all of those public services perform at high levels. That is democracy and public accountability. But there is nothing that says we deserve choices. If I don't particularly like the local police in my town I'm not entitled to private security service at taxpayer expense. But I am entitled to push for better public police service.

There are also enormous geographic inequities at play. In vast stretches of rural America there are no viable private schools. Population densities are not high enough to support them. Which means that public schools are the only educational option for millions of students across tens of thousands of small towns and rural areas in this country. In many small towns the public schools are the heart and soul of the community and taking them away is a death knell. We know this because that is already the experience when school districts are forced to consolidate and small towns lose their public schools.

A state-wide voucher program that bleeds money away from public education to support vouchers for the suburban wealthy will only hurt rural public schools while doing nothing for the children in those communities who don't have any fancy private prep schools anywhere nearby. Voucher advocates hand-wave away this problem by talking about homeschooling and online academies and the like. Yeah. We tried that during COVID and it was a disaster. For wealthy suburbanites to tell rural folks that they have to see their options reduced to online academies in order to provide a windfall for wealthy suburban families who are already sending their kids to private schools is an enormous inequity. And will only serve to further atrophy rural America as families with children give up and move away.

I would actually have less issue with vouchers if they followed the same rules as public schools and were actually paid for. But they do neither. Private schools don't have to educate expensive special needs students, the disabled, or any student who is more difficult or costly to educate than the median. Nor do they have to follow any of the same accountability requirements as public schools (standardized testing, curriculum standards, graduation requirements, teacher certification requirements, open budgets, open public governance, etc.). With vouchers your public tax dollars are pouring into an completely unaccountable rat hole occupied by grifters and fly-by-night religious academies operated in many cases by outright fraudsters.

If we must do vouchers then actually pay for them. Fund them with a new 1% income tax surcharge on the wealthy. Fund them with a new gas tax. Fund them with sales tax on luxury goods or cars that cost over $50,000. Take them out of highway budgets funding freeway expansions to the suburbs. Just don't fund them by robbing already scarce dollars from public education, thereby hurting the vast majority of children who remain in the public schools.
Yes, every kid deserves a quality education. And they're not getting in the current system. Seems like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth when you describe how the "wealthy" (who are those suburban "wealthy" by the way that you obviously dislike?) send their kids to private schools yet at the same time you trash private schools as "grifters and fly-by-night religious academies" as "outright fraudsters." So you don't want those poor kids to have that option of attending a private school?

I know you and Phaetori don't want to believe it, but I'm a strong supporter of public schools. And being a supporter sometimes means you have to acknowledge when something isn't working and fix it. Y'all don't want to fix it because that would mean admitting there's a problem in the current system. Much easier to kill the messenger.
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Old Yesterday, 04:16 PM
 
15,767 posts, read 7,751,451 times
Reputation: 19608
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Yes, every kid deserves a quality education. And they're not getting in the current system. Seems like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth when you describe how the "wealthy" (who are those suburban "wealthy" by the way that you obviously dislike?) send their kids to private schools yet at the same time you trash private schools as "grifters and fly-by-night religious academies" as "outright fraudsters." So you don't want those poor kids to have that option of attending a private school?

I know you and Phaetori don't want to believe it, but I'm a strong supporter of public schools. And being a supporter sometimes means you have to acknowledge when something isn't working and fix it. Y'all don't want to fix it because that would mean admitting there's a problem in the current system. Much easier to kill the messenger.
Vouchers are not going to change the results for poor kids. What would change the results for poor kids is to properly fund their schools with programs that provide the type of support the parents of better off kids provide. Sticking a teacher in an elementary classroom with 25 lower SES kids is not going to give the same results as putting that teacher in a classroom with 25 better off kids. The class full of lower SES kids needs far more resources, wrap around specialists, and teachers aides.

Houston ISD has effectively had school choice for some time - schools in lower SES areas have as many as 50% of the zoned kids going to other schools in the district. The lower SES schools haven't been funded at the levels necessary for success, which is one reason that the State took over the district - there were several lower SES schools that didn't meet standards in consecutive years. Unfortunately, the State hasn't increased funding since 2019, and Governor Abbott was mad that he didn't get vouchers so he refused to use some of the state budget surplus to increase public school funding.
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Old Yesterday, 04:22 PM
 
Location: WA
5,560 posts, read 7,863,186 times
Reputation: 8802
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Yes, every kid deserves a quality education. And they're not getting in the current system. Seems like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth when you describe how the "wealthy" (who are those suburban "wealthy" by the way that you obviously dislike?) send their kids to private schools yet at the same time you trash private schools as "grifters and fly-by-night religious academies" as "outright fraudsters." So you don't want those poor kids to have that option of attending a private school?

I know you and Phaetori don't want to believe it, but I'm a strong supporter of public schools. And being a supporter sometimes means you have to acknowledge when something isn't working and fix it. Y'all don't want to fix it because that would mean admitting there's a problem in the current system. Much easier to kill the messenger.
I don't dislike suburban wealthy. I'm probably one of them. Or at least the schools my kids attend would be classified as such. But I don't think I'm entitled to some big welfare check simply because I want to pull my kids out of the public schools and send them to some private school. Which is exactly what vouchers are. An unaccountable welfare check that largely goes to the wealthy. We at least have work requirements, income requirements, and drug testing requirements for actual welfare. None of that for vouchers.

What I do recognize is that we live in a nation of deep inequities that extend to public education, largely because of the local method though which public schools are funded in this country. A student's educational opportunities should not depend on which side of some arbitrary district boundary line they live on. That is inequitable because we are all Americans.

There are an enormous number of things we could be doing to improve public education in this country. Which could be the subject of endless fruitful threads here on this forum. Vouchers are not one of those things. Vouchers simply strip money from public schools and pass that money onto any sort of private entity that wants to hang up a shingle and call itself a school. With zero accountability to any sort of educational or governance standards. None.

The wealthy parents who already send their children to fancy prep schools will be happy to cash their voucher checks and those schools will no doubt put the money into even fancier facilities, even smaller class sizes, and so forth. But poor kids don't attend those elite schools anyway. Their exclusivity is what they market.

But what will also happen with a tidal wave of public money flowing with no strings attached and no accountability to anyone who decides to toss up a school, the education grifters will be out in full force drawn to the free tax dollars like flies to honey. That is what happens. We see it in every place that establishes voucher programs.

Here is Florida where 65% of vouchers go to schools that are unaccredited by any private school credentialing agency. In other words they are fly-by-night operations:

Quote:
Florida spends over $4 billion of taxpayer money annually on private schools. More than 65 percent are not accredited, requiring parents to check with their students’ prospective colleges to ensure their diplomas will even be accepted. In Florida, homeschool families who receive vouchers are free to purchase large-screen TVs, paddleboards, vacations and other extravagant items, while public schools don’t have basic school supplies, such as paper and pencils. To reduce costs, our traditional public schools have class sizes bursting at the seams, fewer enrichment programs and limited access to accelerated courses.
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Old Yesterday, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Boydton, VA
4,632 posts, read 6,465,220 times
Reputation: 10667
More about The Establishment Clause, and the erosion thereof: Do Religious schools pay taxes ?

I believe if they receive taxpayer $$$ (voucher money) they should pay taxes...same for Charter schools.
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Old Yesterday, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,313 posts, read 24,735,584 times
Reputation: 33240
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Yes, every kid deserves a quality education. And they're not getting in the current system. Seems like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth when you describe how the "wealthy" (who are those suburban "wealthy" by the way that you obviously dislike?) send their kids to private schools yet at the same time you trash private schools as "grifters and fly-by-night religious academies" as "outright fraudsters." So you don't want those poor kids to have that option of attending a private school?

I know you and Phaetori don't want to believe it, but I'm a strong supporter of public schools. And being a supporter sometimes means you have to acknowledge when something isn't working and fix it. Y'all don't want to fix it because that would mean admitting there's a problem in the current system. Much easier to kill the messenger.
I could believe the bolded if I EVER saw posts of yours that sounded like strong support. I must have blinked.

Have I ever said that schools are perfect? Even my own? If you want, I'll sit down and come up with a list of things that I think are wrong with public schools. But I think, that over my time in this forum, I've covered some of the issues pretty well. You just don't notice because you're always on the attack.
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Old Today, 06:34 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
354 posts, read 323,775 times
Reputation: 635
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemstone1 View Post
More about The Establishment Clause, and the erosion thereof: Do Religious schools pay taxes ?

I believe if they receive taxpayer $$$ (voucher money) they should pay taxes...same for Charter schools.
What type of taxes should they pay? Real Estate? They would not pay income taxes because none of these schools make a profit. (Catholic schools are subsidized by their local parishes)
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Old Today, 06:41 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,865 posts, read 58,503,009 times
Reputation: 46420
Attack?....

As in "what-fits-the-narative" for YOUR agenda.

Such as.... Pro-life supporters are ANTI abortionists to those who are into their personal agenda.



Sounds a lot like public schools

What's good for perpetuating the crime and failures, (and sacred golden pensions) is what is allowed to be promoted !

Vouchers

May it never be!
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Old Today, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Boydton, VA
4,632 posts, read 6,465,220 times
Reputation: 10667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey340 View Post
What type of taxes should they pay? Real Estate? They would not pay income taxes because none of these schools make a profit. (Catholic schools are subsidized by their local parishes)
Real Estate, Personal Property taxes would be a start, and/or any other taxation that a citizen or corporation would be required to pay for services received from local, state or federal government.

If they receive taxpayer funds, they should pay for that privilege.
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Old Today, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
17,931 posts, read 13,885,192 times
Reputation: 18050
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
When you give your money to the government they spend it for the greater good, not one person's preference.

It's not your money anymore once you give it away to Uncle Sam.
While I agree with you...

It's not like Phet is the only poster on here that trots out the "my tax money" line.

We've already heard if from other people on this thread with regards to "their tax money" being given to public schools.

Quote:
Many don't like their tax dollars being spent on what is being taught and exhibited in the public schools,
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Old Today, 07:53 AM
 
7,544 posts, read 4,286,854 times
Reputation: 17107
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20 View Post
Vouchers are not going to change the results for poor kids. What would change the results for poor kids is to properly fund their schools with programs that provide the type of support the parents of better off kids provide. Sticking a teacher in an elementary classroom with 25 lower SES kids is not going to give the same results as putting that teacher in a classroom with 25 better off kids. The class full of lower SES kids needs far more resources, wrap around specialists, and teachers aides.

Quote:
First, the students in those charters, mostly black and Hispanic, are out-learning their counterparts in traditional schools — by a lot, according to research from Stanford’s CREDO evaluation center. Researchers there found that urban charter schools in more than twenty cities outperform other public schools by an average of the equivalent of 28 extra days of learning in reading 40 days in math. In some cities, urban charters outperformed by substantially more.

Second, compared to their counterparts the students graduating from those charters are far more likely to succeed in college: two to four times more likely to earn bachelor’s degrees.
https://thehill.com/opinion/educatio...eft-and-right/

What happens in charter schools - is proactive poor parents will look for a good charter school, tour the school, and apply and go through the interview process. It's a time consuming process. Additionally, many charter schools require parents to volunteer. More time consuming. These are the same parents will be help their kids will homework and discipline their children. These kids will do well.

What happens in the public school - is non-involved poor parents plunk their kids in the public school system, They aren't involved in the school, homework or their children. These kids don't do as well.

Nothing to do with the education, poverty, race, but everything to do with the parents.

Look at Asian students in NYC - some come from the poorest areas and score well. Again, it's the parental involvement.


As for money spent by the government - I would rather fund a variety of educational choices rather than bomb children in the Middle East.
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