Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old Yesterday, 08:14 AM
 
12,960 posts, read 9,225,677 times
Reputation: 35261

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20 View Post
Vouchers are not going to change the results for poor kids. What would change the results for poor kids is to properly fund their schools with programs that provide the type of support the parents of better off kids provide. Sticking a teacher in an elementary classroom with 25 lower SES kids is not going to give the same results as putting that teacher in a classroom with 25 better off kids. The class full of lower SES kids needs far more resources, wrap around specialists, and teachers aides.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
There are an enormous number of things we could be doing to improve public education in this country. Which could be the subject of endless fruitful threads here on this forum. Vouchers are not one of those things. Vouchers simply strip money from public schools and pass that money onto any sort of private entity that wants to hang up a shingle and call itself a school. With zero accountability to any sort of educational or governance standards. None.

:
OK, you both have said the same thing. What are those programs? How much money? Start the threads and let's discuss them. Describe what you would do, how it would work, and why. We, the public, keep hearing "more money" but nothing about the details.

What will you do about differing academic ability? Or is all your focus on SES? I'd like to see programs that support students based on their academic ability, regardless of SES. Why such resentment toward higher ability students and toward students from higher SES? It's obvious in your posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old Yesterday, 08:16 AM
 
9,981 posts, read 7,887,855 times
Reputation: 24975
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
https://thehill.com/opinion/educatio...eft-and-right/

What happens in charter schools - is proactive poor parents will look for a good charter school, tour the school, and apply and go through the interview process. It's a time consuming process. Additionally, many charter schools require parents to volunteer. More time consuming. These are the same parents will be help their kids will homework and discipline their children. These kids will do well.

What happens in the public school - is non-involved poor parents plunk their kids in the public school system, They aren't involved in the school, homework or their children. These kids don't do as well.

Nothing to do with the education, poverty, race, but everything to do with the parents.

Look at Asian students in NYC - some come from the poorest areas and score well. Again, it's the parental involvement.

As for money spent by the government - I would rather fund a variety of educational choices rather than bomb children in the Middle East.
This was also true 35 years ago when I got my kids into the district's first magnet school. Scores were off the charts and the school was deemed an outstanding success. It's only because the involved parents are the ones who were even aware there was a new magnet school and took the time to apply, volunteer and make sure their children did well. And yes, some were low income, that part didn't matter.

But it certainly wasn't the curriculum or teachers. When we moved to a different state with "lower" school ratings, my son had to repeat second grade because he was so far behind the children in the new state.

I'm all for choice and for vouchers for all students.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 08:37 AM
 
15,769 posts, read 7,759,522 times
Reputation: 19610
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
OK, you both have said the same thing. What are those programs? How much money? Start the threads and let's discuss them. Describe what you would do, how it would work, and why. We, the public, keep hearing "more money" but nothing about the details.

What will you do about differing academic ability? Or is all your focus on SES? I'd like to see programs that support students based on their academic ability, regardless of SES. Why such resentment toward higher ability students and toward students from higher SES? It's obvious in your posts.
I have never shown resentment towards higher ability students. They aren't really the ones that need help. You can have the higher achieving kids change schools, which is what happens in Houston ISD, where kids can essentially attend any school in the district, and you will still have to deal with the kids that are far harder to teach. I already mentioned programs for those kids, the wrap around specialists, teachers aides, reading specialists, etc. All of that costs money. Allowing vouchers to take kids out of public schools does nothing to help the kids that remain in public schools.

Another issue with vouchers is that when a kid leaves the public school, the funding for that school drops. For the sake of discussion, let's assume the public school funding drops by $10k. The school's costs do not drop by $10k, though, so the public school suffers. The same number of teachers are still required, the same number of classrooms, the same utility costs, and so on.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 08:39 AM
 
12,960 posts, read 9,225,677 times
Reputation: 35261
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I could believe the bolded if I EVER saw posts of yours that sounded like strong support. I must have blinked.

Have I ever said that schools are perfect? Even my own? If you want, I'll sit down and come up with a list of things that I think are wrong with public schools. But I think, that over my time in this forum, I've covered some of the issues pretty well. You just don't notice because you're always on the attack.
Nah, you didn't blink; you just interpret everything that doesn't agree with you as an attack.

I've said before I support things like:

a. Higher pay for teachers by going to a market-based system whereby teachers would be paid competitive to what their degree would bring on market. How is that an attack?

b. I would agree to support a system like Finland for recruiting and educating teachers, with pay accordingly. How is that an attack?

c. Stronger Vo-Tech programs. Some schools do an excellent job. Many do OK. Many more do little. I support funding stronger Vo-Tech programs to provide more options to more students. How is that an attack?

d. I support dividing class into at least three divisions, at least at the elementary and middle school grades for top performers, middle performers, and low performers so each group can get the best match to their academic ability. I would support more classroom teachers to do this. How is this an attack?

e. I support removing troublemakers from the classroom so the kids who want to learn, can. How is this an attack?

f. I support discipline and respect. Which goes both ways. Discipline and accountability. Admin should support teachers. And teachers should have to justify what and why. Protect both student and teacher. How is this an attack?

g. I support realistic grading. You get what you earn. And if you don't get promoted, too bad. How is that an attack?

h. I support parents. Parents are not the enemy. How is that an attack?

i. I support reasonable homework. How is that an attack?

j. I support a traditional school schedule. Students need time in class, and they need time out of class to get a full range of growth opportunities. How is that an attack?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 10:54 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,722 posts, read 18,752,815 times
Reputation: 35448
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20 View Post
I have never shown resentment towards higher ability students. They aren't really the ones that need help. You can have the higher achieving kids change schools, which is what happens in Houston ISD, where kids can essentially attend any school in the district, and you will still have to deal with the kids that are far harder to teach. I already mentioned programs for those kids, the wrap around specialists, teachers aides, reading specialists, etc. All of that costs money. Allowing vouchers to take kids out of public schools does nothing to help the kids that remain in public schools.

Another issue with vouchers is that when a kid leaves the public school, the funding for that school drops. For the sake of discussion, let's assume the public school funding drops by $10k. The school's costs do not drop by $10k, though, so the public school suffers. The same number of teachers are still required, the same number of classrooms, the same utility costs, and so on.
But they are the ones that need the challenge and they aren't getting it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,319 posts, read 24,745,057 times
Reputation: 33241
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Nah, you didn't blink; you just interpret everything that doesn't agree with you as an attack.

I've said before I support things like:

a. Higher pay for teachers by going to a market-based system whereby teachers would be paid competitive to what their degree would bring on market. How is that an attack?

b. I would agree to support a system like Finland for recruiting and educating teachers, with pay accordingly. How is that an attack?

c. Stronger Vo-Tech programs. Some schools do an excellent job. Many do OK. Many more do little. I support funding stronger Vo-Tech programs to provide more options to more students. How is that an attack?

d. I support dividing class into at least three divisions, at least at the elementary and middle school grades for top performers, middle performers, and low performers so each group can get the best match to their academic ability. I would support more classroom teachers to do this. How is this an attack?

e. I support removing troublemakers from the classroom so the kids who want to learn, can. How is this an attack?

f. I support discipline and respect. Which goes both ways. Discipline and accountability. Admin should support teachers. And teachers should have to justify what and why. Protect both student and teacher. How is this an attack?

g. I support realistic grading. You get what you earn. And if you don't get promoted, too bad. How is that an attack?

h. I support parents. Parents are not the enemy. How is that an attack?

i. I support reasonable homework. How is that an attack?

j. I support a traditional school schedule. Students need time in class, and they need time out of class to get a full range of growth opportunities. How is that an attack?
Those posts -- if they all exist -- must have been few and far between.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,319 posts, read 24,745,057 times
Reputation: 33241
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
But they are the ones that need the challenge and they aren't getting it.
Where?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 12:10 PM
 
15,769 posts, read 7,759,522 times
Reputation: 19610
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
But they are the ones that need the challenge and they aren't getting it.
That depends on the school district.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,319 posts, read 24,745,057 times
Reputation: 33241
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20 View Post
That depends on the school district.
Exactly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 12:41 PM
 
Location: WA
5,560 posts, read 7,866,011 times
Reputation: 8812
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
OK, you both have said the same thing. What are those programs? How much money? Start the threads and let's discuss them. Describe what you would do, how it would work, and why. We, the public, keep hearing "more money" but nothing about the details.

What will you do about differing academic ability? Or is all your focus on SES? I'd like to see programs that support students based on their academic ability, regardless of SES. Why such resentment toward higher ability students and toward students from higher SES? It's obvious in your posts.
My focus is not all on SES. But if we are going to actually discern the problems in American education we do have to look at race and SES. The fact of the matter is that here in the US, middle and upper class White and Asian students perform at the very top of the world when we look at things like PISA scores. And wealthy families from Asia and Europe spend enormous amounts of money and effort getting their children enrolled in high-performing American public schools located in affluent areas. A Korean family down the street invested several million dollars in a US business in order to bring their kids here for school. That is not an indication of failing schools.

Last Friday I attended my daughter's HS graduation. It is a big public HS in a relatively affluent suburban area that is largely White and Asian with a sprinkling of Hispanic students. There were 28 students with perfect 4.0 GPAs in her graduating class. To figure out a Valedictorian they had to sort based on criteria like the number of AP classes (even though Washington State doesn't give GPA bonus points to AP classes like some other states). The Valedictorian was one of my daughter's friends. A girl of Indian-American descent whose parents are top tech engineers and who choose to live in that community despite the longer commute specifically because of the schools. She managed to squeeze in 18 AP classes during her HS career plus a bazillion extracurriculars to earn Valedictorian. I think she is bound for Stanford. My daughter had one A- to blemish an otherwise perfect 4.0 and that dropped her down to about 50 in the class ranking. Her graduating class is a very long list of students with astonishing resumes who are bound for a wide assortment of elite private and public universities.

You can see this pattern duplicated across the country in every middle and upper class suburb around every city. Plano TX, Cupertino CA, the affluent burbs around Boston, Washington, NY, Chicago, Minneapolis, etc. etc. What is going wrong with such schools? Nothing unless you figure that they are TOO competitive and TOO high achieving. My wife is a doctor and she has a colleague who has a son at our same school. He pulled is son out of band because it was detracting from his study time. And he got resort hotel room outside of town during Spring Break where he took his son for 8 days of super intensive SAT prep during his junior year in order to pull up his SAT score. Did it work? I don't know, but he got into Washington University in St. Louis on a pre-med track which was the objective if he didn't get into Stanford.

That is one segment of the American Public School system. It is the system for the majority of the population that falls in the top 25% and especially the top 5%. They have top teachers, great labs and facilities, endless enrichment opportunities from robotics clubs to theater.

At the other end we have just as many schools struggling with poverty. Plagued by things like low attendance, an enormous smorgasbord of different languages spoken. Children in all manner of unstable family and housing situations who are basically coming and going as they bounce around between homes and towns. Much higher rates of mental, psychological and physical disabilities to deal with. And very often older and crumbling school infrastructures because they are located in neighborhoods that the rest of the economy and society has all but abandoned. Does it mean that the schools are "bad". Not necessarily. But it absolutely guarantees that they will not perform as well on any standardized metric. A kid whose first language is Kaqchikel Mayan, whose 2nd language is Spanish, and 3rd language is English and who recently immigrated from Guatemala where his schools were at best open 2-3 days a week and he spent most of his childhood working in the fields is simply not going to score as high on standardized ELA tests than a child growing up in a stable affluent American suburb. and that is no reflection on the schools. Even schools that perform poorly on standardized metrics often have cadres of super bright students performing at the very top. Often they are highly motivated immigrant students. I have taught AP classes in what would be classified as low SEIS schools. And those classes have students who are a bright as kids anywhere. But their successes are invisible when all you look at is school-wide metrics or district-wide metrics.

It is frankly pointless to look at national or state averages when trying to identify any issues with American public education. Because to do so simply obscures both the successes and the failures. And when you do drill down to examine what is really going wrong in American education what you find is that we have difficulty educating our poor communities and especially our Black and Hispanic poor communities. And that is for a whole lot of complicated societal reasons that really have nothing to do with education. To put it bluntly, schools in inner-city Houston or the south side of Chicago measure poorly on pretty much any standardized metric you want to use, not because the teachers are necessarily bad or because the schools are doing a bad job. But because socio-economic conditions in the neighborhoods in which they are located. It isn't even race so much as class. When I taught in Texas I taught in a fairly affluent school. We had lots of high-performing Black students whose parents took them out of lower performing schools and moved to our district for that very reason. So the schools that get left behind perform worse and worse.

So what are the answers? How do we improve schools that are labeled as struggling? Cutting their funding (which is what voucher programs do) is the opposite place to start. It is a complex problem that is ultimately going to require fixing the root causes of poverty in this country if you really want to make headway. But more resources is one place to start. Changing union rules to preference schools in disadvantaged areas is another. Tightening up attendance rules is a third. Turning schools into something more along the lines of full-time community centers is a 3rd. Where kids can say play basketball, do art, work on homework, practice music, etc. under adult supervision until 7 or 8 at night and in the early morning as well instead of only being open from 8-3. Diversionary programs within schools where disruptive kids can be sent to learn in a different environment rather than making the regular classrooms miserable. Better law enforcement within schools and within the neighborhoods in which they are located. The list is endless. All of it costs more money. Often a LOT more money. But we are also not only the wealthiest society in the world, but also the wealthiest society that has ever existed in history. If it is something we care about, we can afford it.

Last edited by texasdiver; Yesterday at 12:55 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top