We need to completely scrap and change our nations education system. (private school, economy)

[jps-teacher]

Originally Posted by Humanoid

You seem to have this odd idea that if you post your opinion on a forum, you are obligated in some way to fully justify it. In general I'm perfectly happy justifying my position when it can be done easily, but in this case doing so would be difficult. Additionally, I don't really care whether you agree with me or not so perhaps you'll just have to deal with the fact that some people have different views than you?

This is actually a very key point, Humanoid, and I am very glad you raised it.

When a person posts an opinion on a forum, s/he is under no obligation to support it in any way shape or manner. If you want to tell me that ice cream tastes better in California than Maine, go right ahead. I may disagree, but I won't claim to have proven that you are wrong.

That is not what you have done.

You have made factual assertions that were demonstrably false. Not just one or two, either, but a series of them as you attempted to defend the earlier ones.

Even with factual assertions, there is no obligation to support them, Humanoid, but when they are in dispute, for you to say "just... deal with the fact that some people have different views than you" is:

1) fatuous;
2) erroneous - it is not about view, but about facts;
3) self-serving - it is a way to deny responsibility for your mistakes.

Originally Posted by Humanoid

I haven't really tried to justify what I've said

I understand, Humanoid.

You have made your point.

Your expressions of opinions and claims of facts, when presented, should be assumed to be based on little direct experience, to represent few real facts, and to have no verifiable support to them, until demonstrated otherwise.

[maf763]

It's like passing a wreck on the highway - but I can't look away.

[jps-teacher]

Originally Posted by maf763

It's like passing a wreck on the highway - but I can't look away.

Sorry.

[MittenDweller82]

I have an idea! Start a new forum on education titled: How to Refute 101

[Humanoid]

Guess what! The application requirements are a) high school courses taken, b) usually some standardized tests, and c) essays, and d) recommendations.

The application requirements vary to school to school. But how likely do you think it is that a plumber got A's and took AP courses when in high school? If the universities had any interest in admitting students who are in currently in the work force they would change the admission requirements for them. Furthermore, you aren't going to get good recommendations by simply taking a couple of community college classes. You need to get to know the teachers and they need to think well of you.

Oh right, I forgot, the people who apply for CC jobs are incompetent at life to begin with

Never said that, but do you seriously think the applications to tenure track positions at say UCLA are of the same intelligence as the applications to your local community college? If the applicant pools are different and there is good reason to believe they are, then your reasoning is fallacious.

We were discussing your belief that older students would lose options by going to community colleges, as "good universities" will not deal with community college transfers.

Why are you wasting bits on this? Be green. For the community college student either situation is the same.

especially with all those pesky facts getting in your way.

Nobody as actually cited the required facts and for good reason, many aren't even published by the universities. You haven't refuted my original claim, namely that when students return to school after being in the work force they have limited options. You are missing the forest for the trees.

You have made factual assertions that were demonstrably false.

Well...nobody demonstrated they were false. Not my actual claims anyways, just things you read into what I typed. The problem is you are essentially attacking straw man here as you refuse to allow one to clarify their position. You insist that the original assertion is what I think despite the fact that I have clarified myself. As I've stated many times I'm not just talking about official admission policies, but also de facto policies. You have not shown in any sense that the cited universities do not have de facto policies that greatly restricted transfers (from CC or otherwise) and the admission of students that have been in the work force for a number of years. So, continue to hit the straw man if you like. Whatever works for you.

[stan4]

What's so funny about people who want to reform our education system is that they consistently overlook the fact that students who try hard and want to do well usually do. Clearly, the system works for those who try. I don't remember anyone in high school doing poorly because the school somehow let them down. They did poorly because they didn't take school seriously and didn't care.

[jps-teacher]

Originally Posted by stan4

What's so funny about people who want to reform our education system is that they consistently overlook the fact that students who try hard and want to do well usually do. Clearly, the system works for those who try. I don't remember anyone in high school doing poorly because the school somehow let them down. They did poorly because they didn't take school seriously and didn't care.

Have I got a few thousand kids to introduce to you!

As a few quick examples, the student who wishes to take an advanced math class, was told she would have to pass an exam for the intermediary material, prepared for the exam all summer, and then was told they had changed their minds and would not allow her to test out of the material.

Perhaps the IB student in a 70 person psychology class with a self-professed burnt out teacher would qualify?

There is a student in rural Montana whose high school doesn't offer the courses he needs to be able to get into the colleges he wishes to go to.

A young lady was suspended and then expelled from her high school because she (on advice) finally went to the guidance department to get support for the fact that she was cutting (as in self-injury).

This is the proverbial tip of the iceberg, except that the tip is a far higher percentage than what I have listed.

The notion that if they "try hard and want to do well" that they usually do may be true, but that is only because "usually" can mean 51% of the time. Personally, I am skeptical that it is accurate even that much of the time.

But, even including those students, that you "don't remember anyone in high school doing poorly because the school somehow let them down" suggests to me that either you have been living in an idyllic setting, your memory is faulty, or you were just not paying attention.

Even the best schools let some kids down, I suspect. The poor ones let down plenty of them.

And few kids start school neither taking it seriously nor caring about learning. They have to learn that...

[stan4]

Well, I admit you have me on that one. I was part of an exceptional public school system.
It was pretty easy to see who didn't care...and then not be surprised when they did poorly.

That cutting thing is messed up (as is that whole thing with the girl being outed by her principal...wtf?).

One of my oldest friends teaches in a poorer urban school...she teaches "regular" high school English and AP...says there is a big difference in the attitude of the students.

I stick with "usually" b/c I think it applies more than 51% of the time. And b/c my role models came from schools that had no a/c, no computers...sometimes no proper doors...and they are all college/masters/phd grads and self-made millionaires.

I was raised believing that if you want it...hell, just go get it. And that nothing was more important than an education.

[jps-teacher]

"Many 'good' universities accept community college transfer students, and some of them actively seek them."

Originally Posted by Humanoid

I'm not just talking about official admission policies, but also de facto policies. You have not shown in any sense that the cited universities do not have de facto policies that greatly restricted transfers (from CC or otherwise) and the admission of students that have been in the work force for a number of years. So, continue to hit the straw man if you like. Whatever works for you.

The official admissions policies part was disproven, thoroughly, though you are loathe to admit it. (Try asking for other opinions than yours or mine on whether you were proven wrong on that. OTOH, opinions about our being tiresome might be unanimous.)

On to the defacto. Community college transfers:
I listed Cal Tech, which has taken a higher percentage of 2 year college transferees than of 4 year college transferees for the past 5 years - not just one season. That sounds like a concrete example that conflicts with your presumption. Oh, wait - I can hear you now, saying "but what about the raw numbers of students they took!"

Well, you lose here, too. Cal Tech, from Fall 2000 to Fall 2005, had 20% more 4 year transfer applicants, but 20% fewer transfer admissions!

Oh, right - this was in science, too, where community colleges are so much weaker. Cal Tech must have made a mistake!

Two years ago, Besselle transferred to Harvard from Vista Community College in Berkeley, Calif.

Besselle is the first person in his family to receive a higher education. He says financial constraints were a primary reason why he opted for a community college rather than a four-year school.

“I think community colleges are great gateways,” Besselle said.

Besselle was accepted to Harvard, Yale, and Stanford. Besselle says he ultimately chose Harvard because of its financial aid package.

Oh, look! Three more "good universities" that accept transfers from community colleges.

Each year 1,400 to 1,600 students apply to Stanford for about 70 spots in the junior class, The New York Times reported last spring. Last academic year, 26 percent of those accepted to Stanford came from community colleges, according to the Times.

At Amherst College, nine out of 11 of this fall’s transfer class are community college transfers, according to Amherst admissions statistics. Amherst also visited 22 different community colleges this fall.

Both the University of Virginia and the University of California, Los Angeles are making concerted efforts to recruit community college students in their states.

UVA is now in its third year of a local community-college outreach program. According to UVA’s admissions office, last year nearly half of its 500 transfer students came from Virginia community colleges. This year, UVA agreed to take 60 percent of its transfer class from Virginia community colleges.

UCLA gives priority to students transferring from California community colleges, according to its admissions office Web site.

Let's see... that's numbers 1, 3, 4, 6, 23, and 25 from the top 25 national universities list.

Q.E.D.

"Many good universities accept community college transfer students, and some of them actively seek them."

[jps-teacher]

Originally Posted by Humanoid

You have not shown in any sense that the cited universities do not have de facto policies that greatly restricted transfers (from CC or otherwise) and the admission of students that have been in the work force for a number of years. So, continue to hit the straw man if you like. Whatever works for you.

Another one (article headline):

A pathway to success: among Ivy League institutions, Cornell is leading the way in admitting and encouraging community college transfers
one in four Cornell undergrads is likely to have transferred in. Of the transfer students, about 33 percent came from a community college.

Humanoid, it's about this simple:

The good colleges are seeking good students wherever they can find them. The ones that take transfers take community college transfers, with no restrictions on percentage and no additional hurdles. Exceptions are few and far between.