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I agree, but this is something that the administration should consider while assigning rank (I thought that they did, but hearing what some have to say makes me think other wise) instead of just automatically giving it to someone simply because they attempted (a) harder course(s).
Funny how in college it does not matter if you are taking college algebra or calculus III (well, depending on your major and/or what you plan on studying in grad school). A grade is a grade and your GPA is your GPA.
In the workforce those two employees should have the same understanding of the job as they are both in the same department. A student in algebra I is not going to have the same understanding of math (maybe) as a student in AP calculus II. Even if they are in the same class, they are in totally different departments. But, the student who is in algebra I is at his/her skill level and the situation should be treated the same as the person who is in AP calculus II since that person is also at his/her skill level. Like I said before, it is comparing apples to oranges (although with your sales people it is apples to apples).
You might think that is true, but colleges actually rank students also. There isn't an overall ranking (at least I don't recall), but my college ranked according to major.
And while we're on the subject of Algebra, I'd do cartwheels if Algebra I in middle school became mandatory.
Maybe AP classes are a bit of a different scenario, but it's completely COMPLETELY unfair for kids in a "regular" english class (or math, whatever) class get an A, and a kid in an "honors" english class get an A and have it not have any more meaning... what's the point of even HAVING honors classes?
Believe me, i went through this in a way. I was valedictorian of my senior class. I took honors english and math classes throughout high school. The interval between myself and the salutatorian was something like 0.25. He for some reason thought he should have been valedictorian, and whined about weighing the grades. In fact, our school didn't weigh grades, and if they did, my GPA would have been even higher than his, because he didn't take honors math classes like I did.
Maybe AP classes are a bit of a different scenario, but it's completely COMPLETELY unfair for kids in a "regular" english class (or math, whatever) class get an A, and a kid in an "honors" english class get an A and have it not have any more meaning... what's the point of even HAVING honors classes?
Believe me, i went through this in a way. I was valedictorian of my senior class. I took honors english and math classes throughout high school. The interval between myself and the salutatorian was something like 0.25. He for some reason thought he should have been valedictorian, and whined about weighing the grades. In fact, our school didn't weigh grades, and if they did, my GPA would have been even higher than his, because he didn't take honors math classes like I did.
Unfortunately, this is what it all boils down to. Judging by the responses it is easy to see that it is not about the quality of education that students receive in these AP/IB courses/programs, but it is all about which college they will open the doors to, and more importantly, who 'deserves' to attend them.
This misrepresents what I was saying in my opinion.
I object to grades, but recognize that the grading system still exists and must be taken into consideration, along with scholarships and college admissions.
But, the challenge of the programs is at least as often the major factor in why students enroll in them (and why some are disappointed by them).
It may not be why the parents want their kids in the programs, but that, to me, is a different discussion.
But if there's no motivation for them to learn more (unless they're super ambitious anyway), why not take the regular class that would be easy to pass without doing much of anything?
Since students around the country get whipped up about such small differences, such as supernerdgirl discussed, some schools have gone to an "honors group" rather than valedictorian, salutatorian, etc.
Another issue: sometimes the "honors" course is no more rigorous than the regular course, and most of the time it is not 25% more rigorous. My daughter took regular AlgebraII and her friend took honors Alg. II. At mid-term, they were both at the same place in the book! I asked the math co-ordinator about it, and she said that shouldn't be. But it was. The honors course was weighted. If schools are going to do weighting, it should be reserved for AP/IB ONLY.
The 10% rule was put into place a few years ago. I actually knew a few people in my daughters magnet that mentioned moving to a MUCH smaller district for high school so that their child would easily make the top 10%.
They might be shooting themselves in the feet. A smaller class size means fewer in the top 10%.
In the workforce those two employees should have the same understanding of the job as they are both in the same department. A student in algebra I is not going to have the same understanding of math (maybe) as a student in AP calculus II. Even if they are in the same class, they are in totally different departments. But, the student who is in algebra I is at his/her skill level and the situation should be treated the same as the person who is in AP calculus II since that person is also at his/her skill level. Like I said before, it is comparing apples to oranges (although with your sales people it is apples to apples).
I don't agree that it's comparing oranges to apples. The students would have started at the same level originally, yet they are finishing at vastly different levels. One much higher on the scale than the other, just as the higher performing sales people would have finished.
If you want to take issue with that subject, then substitute English or History for the subject. A student taking AP English/History is doing above and beyond the work of the student taking regular English/History, therefore should be graded accordingly.
If the issue in your case is that the AP class is not any different than regular class, then perhaps your experience is far different than mine.
I understand that some schools don't follow the AP guidelines which is currently being evaluated due to those concerns. However, in our district they do indeed follow the AP guidelines and AP classes are definitely much more challenging and in depth compared to grade level classes in the same subjects.
Since students around the country get whipped up about such small differences, such as supernerdgirl discussed, some schools have gone to an "honors group" rather than valedictorian, salutatorian, etc.
I for one would love to see the whole valedictorian/salutatorian BS just go away. what supernerdgirl describe is VERY true in very competitive school. kids whine that the grading was unfair and they should have been the vale, sometimes parents get involved and it turns this big mess w/ parents demanding the grades be redone. it's crazy how people complain about these things, going on and on about how the kid's life is basically ruined if the child is the vale. newsflash: most colleges send out their acceptance letters before the finally grades are tallied and the vale is determined!! this was especially true a few years ago when elite schools still offered early admittance
there was a case in NJ where a girl's family SUED the school district b/c she had not been chosen as valedictorian. never mind the fact that both she and the other kid in question both got into Harvard, the parents demanded she should have been the vale. it turned into an ugly mess, the girl won the case, but was completely ostracized by the other students and the townspeople and didn't even attend the ceremony. funny thing is, the main reason this story stuck out for me was b/c Harvard rescinded it's offer to admit her after it was found out she had plagiarized some essays.
and programs such as what TX is doing are flawed b/c classes vary greatly even w/in the same school, let alone across a district or state. parents gunning for the top 10% may just transfer their kid to an easier school/district or complain about the grading policies at the current school. I know in MA, students who score a certain amount on the MCAS get a full scholarship to any state college; something like this would be better than the TX program
IMO, it's just a title and it won't matter in the long run outside of HS reunions. like I said before, schools like Harvard and MIT look beyond just class rank when selecting incoming freshmen. no one in college will care if you were the vale, salu, or graduated #30 out of a class of 200. class rank means squat in the real world and are really just there for bragging rights. better to have an honors program where more students are recognized for their work (especially an honors program that takes into account GPA rather than class rank, like a Dean's List at a college)
I don't agree that it's comparing oranges to apples. The students would have started at the same level originally, yet they are finishing at vastly different levels. One much higher on the scale than the other, just as the higher performing sales people would have finished.
From my perspective they are different.
Yes, at one point in time these students would have been on the same level, but the you are putting into the context of a vast generalization. If you compared any two students, one AP to one non-AP, you will find that you will go back various lengths of time with each pair to that point where they were equal. Yes, some students in AP bust their behinds to get there, and that is very commendable. Some students just have a knack for learning quickly and others seem to have been a brainiac since birth. All of these students do belong in AP/IB/honors, but I do not think that they should be 'rewarded' for it, except, maybe, for that kid who busted his behind to get there. However, isn't the premise of the AP program the reward? Isn't the preparation for college the reward? Isn't receiving some college credit the reward? Isn't the possibility of 'better' college options and the possibility of more, larger scholarships and grants the reward?
Just so you know, I am not against AP, IB or honor courses/programs. I just think the grades should not be inflated past a 4.0 unless the student, any student, does extra work. Not harder work, mind you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypocore
If the issue in your case is that the AP class is not any different than regular class, then perhaps your experience is far different than mine.
I understand that some schools don't follow the AP guidelines which is currently being evaluated due to those concerns. However, in our district they do indeed follow the AP guidelines and AP classes are definitely much more challenging and in depth compared to grade level classes in the same subjects.
In my high school the subject material was essentially the same, but more in-depth as it was considered that these students where mature enough to handle the deeper discussions that topics like the book In Cold Blood and the politics behind the Vietnam War would bring up. And students were allowed to speak 'freely', as they do in many college classroom discussions which was something that the students in the general population of my high school were not allowed to do.
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