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well, thank god my dad didn't know about these programs. otherwise, he likely would have pulled me out of my prestigious college prep school and enrolled me at the HS where the kids were just barely reading above a 6th grade level why bother w/ the harder classes at the harder school when you can coast through w/ easy classes at an easy school and get into college for FREE! granted, Vermont State College isn't exactly Harvard...they gotta pull in these smart kids somehow!
Um...as the spouse of a UVM alum I would say , "What?"
Where exactly is Vermont State??
The previous post refers to the state college system, which would include the University of Vermont.
No, not Harvard but a highly rated and regarded public university which has no problem "pulling in those smart kids"
Um...as the spouse of a UVM alum I would say , "What?"
Where exactly is Vermont State??
The previous post refers to the state college system, which would include the University of Vermont.
No, not Harvard but a highly rated and regarded public university which has no problem "pulling in those smart kids"
Vermont State Colleges > Home (http://www.vsc.edu/Home/tabid/36/Default.aspx - broken link)
granted, it is more than one college, but UVM isn't part of this system according to that site. not knocking the school system, just saying that offering such scholarships may the their main way of drawing in high ranking students who would otherwise go to more prestigious schools. of course, while I'm sure Vermont Technical College is a fine school, I doubt the kind of kids applying there would have been the type to apply to Harvard or MIT
A very small percentage of colleges wish to see kids' having taken the most challenging courses - if it is as high as 10% of U.S. 4 year colleges, I would be surprised (though I grant that with honors college programs, the numbers do go up some). 4 - 8% strikes me as a more realistic number.
Few colleges expect a class filled with top students, and many folks can name most of them off the tops of their heads.
I'd be interested in seeing your source on the above statistic. My older daughter went to St. Olaf College, which is a nationally ranked liberal arts school. They say in their catolog that they look at rigor.
"We prefer an applicant with lower grades in more challenging classes to one with very high grades in easier classes. Ideally, you will have taken as many Honors, Advanced Placement (AP), and/or International Baccalaureate (IB) courses as possible. If your high school does not offer advanced classes in a particular subject or does not offer them at all, we will not penalize you for missing them."
A very small percentage of colleges wish to see kids' having taken the most challenging courses - if it is as high as 10% of U.S. 4 year colleges, I would be surprised (though I grant that with honors college programs, the numbers do go up some). 4 - 8% strikes me as a more realistic number.
Few colleges expect a class filled with top students, and many folks can name most of them off the tops of their heads.
UCLA has about 75% of its freshman students each year with above a 4.0 GPA. This means 75% of the students were taking some AP or IB courses to get above a 4.0. Obviously these kids were taking the "hardest" courses.
I'd be interested in seeing your source on the above statistic. My older daughter went to St. Olaf College, which is a nationally ranked liberal arts school. They say in their catolog that they look at rigor.
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by missionhome
UCLA has about 75% of its freshman students each year with above a 4.0 GPA. This means 75% of the students were taking some AP or IB courses to get above a 4.0. Obviously these kids were taking the "hardest" courses.
This is sort of my point. You have each listed a college that is ranked (for all that I am generally disdainful of ranking schema) and competitive. UCLA accepted 23.6% of those who applied, and only 51% of those with a GPA 4.00 or above! It's an exceptional program. Berkeley was even more selective.
Compare that to UC Merced, which took 89.6% or Riverside, at 86.6%.
St. Olaf's acceptance rate was actually close to 60% - higher than they've been historically, if I am not mistaken. But, regardless, it is not your run of the mill college, hence its inclusion in Colleges that Change Lives.
There are 2629 four year colleges in the United States. (Bureau of Educational Statistics)
~117 of them admit under 50% of their applicants. (Peterson's Guides)
That's 4.45% of them. Double it and it's 8.9%, or half way between my range and "I'd be surprised."
The colleges that take more than half of their applicants may be happy to have the students who are stretching themselves, but it isn't generally their expectation.
I mentioned the colleges with honors college programs. There are ~1000 colleges (2 and 4 year combined) that offer such things, but the quality and essence of the programs vary very widely. This line from the association for these programs sums up my reservations quite effectively:
Quote:
Won’t my college GPA suffer if I join an Honors Program?
No, Honors courses aren’t graded harder (or any easier!) than other college courses. A student who averages a 3.6 in regular courses will probably have a 3.6 GPA for Honors courses too.
I would guess there may be another 50-75 top notch programs, many of them in places one might not expect, like Indiana State University of Pennsylvania. It is for those programs and a few like St. Olaf that I extended my numbers up to 8% to start with.
When I wrote "4%-8%" I was not using a statistical formula; I was going off my own experience in college admissions and my sense of the institutions - but was pretty comfortable with the range, nonetheless. The initial numbers seem to support the general contention - but as with my first percentages, my numbers for the good honors college programs are rough estimates. It might be 35 or 85, for all I know - but I would neither expect 25 nor 100.
What do you think? Is weighting honors and AP classes grade inflation? I've got to get to work now, but I read that statement at the end of another thread (hope you don't mind me lifting your words pennquaker) and thought it would be a good topic of conversation. I have mixed feelings..
I don't believe in AP and honors courses. I think they reward kids who are socially retarded, one-dimensional, and obsessed with grades at the expense of everything else. They are used by some to exclude themselves from others, to perpetuate a private school existence in a public school setting.
I think all kids should be in one course, with challenging problems presented to every kid in addition to what is required. Those who choose not to do them will not be penalized. Those who choose to do them gain intrinsic rewards in knowing they met the challenge and increased their understanding, but there should be no additional grade boost because of it. Their reward may come later in a higher SAT score perhaps.
jps-teacher, your post is very interesting, but it doesn't address whether these colleges look at rigor or not. For that, you have to look at their catalogs, or in some cases, talk to their admissions officers. I know St. Olaf is different than say, the University of Colorado, but nevertheless, I don't know how you can say CU doesn't look at rigor from the information you posted.
For in-state student automatic admission, CU uses a matrix of grades and test scores which they do not publish on the web, but which every high school counselor in the state has in their posession. An all "A" student with an low ACT/SAT score may not make the cut. So this could weed out students who are just taking easy courses to get As. This is just an example. They can admit 20% of in-state students who don't meet their AA criteria, and then there are the out-of-staters, who are admitted on the basis of whether they can pay full fare.
Alexus, I disagree with you and I don't like the use of the word "retarded" in that manner. I think there is a place for AP/IB, but I really disagree with weighting grades. I think if you are capable of taking these courses, you should be capable of getting your grades w/o being given a handicap.
I don't believe in AP and honors courses. I think they reward kids who are socially retarded, one-dimensional, and obsessed with grades at the expense of everything else. They are used by some to exclude themselves from others, to perpetuate a private school existence in a public school setting.
I think all kids should be in one course, with challenging problems presented to every kid in addition to what is required. Those who choose not to do them will not be penalized. Those who choose to do them gain intrinsic rewards in knowing they met the challenge and increased their understanding, but there should be no additional grade boost because of it. Their reward may come later in a higher SAT score perhaps.
wow, I guess I'm "socially retarded, one dimensional, and obsessed with grades"! thank you for summing me (someone you've never met), and several other honor students (many of whom you've never met) up so nicely
never mind the fact that my AP courses encouraged more class discussion and participation than the regular classes. and I never felt that I was in a private school setting when taking AP and honor coursed (trust me, I went to a private elementary school. can't compare the two)
you seem to not get that in a typical classroom, the students' knowledge can vary greatly. in the same class, you may, as an example, get a few kids who can do 2x2, a couple of kids who can only do 2+2, a few that know 2 to the power of 2, and maybe a kid or two that can tell you all the properties of 2 as a prime number.
kids who get frustrated due to difficult school work may cease to do it and/or act out. kids who get frustrated b/c they are more advanced than the work given to them and are bored may cease to do it or act out. yet according to you, they should be penalized. why? because they are smarter than the school expects? because they may be behind due to various reasons like language barriers, emotional or mental disorders? do you know how many kids w/ high IQs drop out of HS due to boredom? these smarter kids are much better served in AP and honor courses
jps-teacher, your post is very interesting, but it doesn't address whether these colleges look at rigor or not. For that, you have to look at their catalogs, or in some cases, talk to their admissions officers.
I didn't say that they don't look at rigor. I said that few "wish to see kids' having taken the most challenging courses." And I don't mean that they wouldn't like to see it, but, as I reworded for my next post, that "it isn't generally their expectation."
If a student applies to Becker or Dean College with a 4.20 GPA and a bunch of AP exams, they will be more than happy to look at the rigor of the student - but it will be a rarity for them. No student applying without such courses will be looked at askance by the admissions departments, whereas for St. Olaf and UCLA, the percentage applying without any APs (or an IB or a dual enrollment) is likely to be small - let alone those being accepted.
ETA: The admissions catalogs are pretty close to useless for determining the degree of rigor they seek from their applicants' backgrounds, as far as I can tell. Sometimes, the fast facts provide a hint, but that's more often the case with those colleges that are more challenging, themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
Alexus, I disagree with you and I don't like the use of the word "retarded" in that manner.
I agree with your comment to Alexus. To me, that post is basically an attack on bright people and a set of gross stereotypes.
Last edited by jps-teacher; 10-23-2008 at 09:40 PM..
Reason: clarity
The kids that are in the advanced programs work extremely hard, therefore earn extra credit as a result.
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why bother w/ the harder classes at the harder school when you can coast through w/ easy classes at an easy school and get into college for FREE! granted, Vermont State College isn't exactly Harvard...they gotta pull in these smart kids somehow!
thank you for summing me (someone you've never met), and several other honor students (many of whom you've never met) up so nicely 
