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There is no real test for maturity, my HS validictorian was a major partier, but she was smart. All I'm trying to say is that I don't think maturity should be the defining reason in deciding if someone is ready for college. If it was there would be a lot of people not getting into college. In a lot of ways college helps to teach responability, for some.
Honestly I know guys and girls in their 30's who act like their ten and party every night, but still graduated from college.
And while yes it would be expensive to overhaul the education system it has to start somewhere, and it may take decades, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. Start with kindergarten and first grade now, and in 10 years see how far you can get. You can't just sit around and hope it will change. It may be pipe-dream but without a dream you get nowhere.
You should watch Boys Town, What Father Flannigan did no one thought could be done.He was doubted, and ridiculed, and people told what he was doing didn't stand a chance. He did what others were not willing to do, and he started with no money and a pipe- dream.And made it reality.
There is no real test for maturity, my HS validictorian was a major partier, but she was smart. All I'm trying to say is that I don't think maturity should be the defining reason in deciding if someone is ready for college. If it was there would be a lot of people not getting into college. In a lot of ways college helps to teach responability, for some.
Honestly I know guys and girls in their 30's who act like their ten and party every night, but still graduated from college.
And while yes it would be expensive to overhaul the education system it has to start somewhere, and it may take decades, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. Start with kindergarten and first grade now, and in 10 years see how far you can get. You can't just sit around and hope it will change. It may be pipe-dream but without a dream you get nowhere.
You should watch Boys Town, What Father Flannigan did no one thought could be done.He was doubted, and ridiculed, and people told what he was doing didn't stand a chance. He did what others were not willing to do, and he started with no money and a pipe- dream.And made it reality.
NO, there is no test for maturity. However, the immature 30 yr olds were even worse at 16! Over time, everyone gets a little more mature. And it's not just the "mature" who are academically bright.
At some point in time I will read Father Flanagan's story. However, you need to remember, he did his thing with a small group, not a whole country. There are many other such success stories, but they don't always work on a large scale.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that a 16 or 17yo is not academically ready to take on the challenges of a college education. Heck, there are some students as young as 14 or 15 who are academically ready. That is not the point that I am trying to make.
I was definitely bored with high school. That was partially because I was interested in pursuing other activities (skateboarding, girls....) and partially because of the structure of a typical high school education. It wasn't that I wasn't challenged enough, but more or less not challenged in a way that I wanted to be. The main difference between high school and college is not in the breadth of academic choices and rigor, but in the fact that what you make of your college education is entirely up to you.
In high school, faculty and administration go out of their way to help students who are failing, not attending class, or otherwise not doing so hot overall. Yeah, maybe that is a part of their job description, but it is also because of things like NCLB and the fact that their is a direct correlation between the amount of funding a high school receives and the success of it's students. The failing student does not need to seek out help, because help is going to be breaking down their door. On top of that, most teenagers live in an environment where they are taken care of. Their food is bought by someone else (and usually cooked by someone else, too), their bills and clothes are paid for by someone else, etc. While most teenagers want to be left alone to their own devices, they do not possess that skill set yet, or at least have the full understanding of what that entails.
In college, it is nice that you do not need to raise your hand or receive a hall pass in order to go to the bathroom. You just get up and go. If you skip class, no one is going to care; among other 'rules' that make high school seem like hell. However, with that, if you are failing, teachers and administration are not going to seek you out. If you are struggling in a class it is up to you to find ways to get help. To me, that is where the problem with young students attending college begins. And that has nothing to do with being academically able. These young students are being taken from an environment where (most) everything is handed to them and being placed into an environment where it is entirely up to you. That is where the maturity comes in. Over the years I have known quite a few people who failed courses or dropped out of college completely because they never asked for help, or they didn't know where or how to. In all of my classes, it is the older students who are constantly talking to the professors after class regarding the material, or generally asking questions in class. The younger students usually keep quite (unless they are talking amongst themselves). almost never seem to ask the professors for help (at least not during or immediately after class) and are usually the ones who cry (sometimes literally) if they are failing or not doing so hot on the tests. Once again, that has to do with maturity.
I copied and pasted this post in whole because it makes points that cannot be ignored as part of this discussion and is worth reading again. There is no test for maturity; however, it is directly related to age and experience - something most teens do not have. And the only way to get it - is time, and time is one thing our society seems to be taking away from kids as we expect them to mature and grow up faster and faster and be successful participants in a world for which they are not ready.
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And while yes it would be expensive to overhaul the education system it has to start somewhere, and it may take decades, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. Start with kindergarten and first grade now, and in 10 years see how far you can get. You can't just sit around and hope it will change. It may be pipe-dream but without a dream you get nowhere.
You are young and idealistic, and from my point of view, maybe not fully cognizant of the political realities of educational change and funding. I hope to read your name in the coming years as an active and vocal advocate of change in the US public educational system. You are correct - take an idea, a dream, and make it work in spite of the opposition. In all seriousness, I wish you the best on your quest. I and many teachers and parents will all be supporting you. If you really feel as passionate about this as your posts seem to indicate, I expect you'll be right at the forefront of change to turn the dream into reality.
Last edited by newflowers; 11-11-2008 at 02:51 PM..
It wasn't that small of a group and is quite large now. As far as maturity, there will always be mature and immature people, but I do not think that that should be the deciding factor. You also have to look at the fact that parents will be involved. A 16Yo is a minor, and parents are usually the best judge of their childs maturity level.
I think that a parent and child together with the students teachers and guidence counselors will be equipped to decide if a student is prepared for college, maturity wise. And if it does not work out then let it be possible for the student to return to HS. Review at the end of each semester. I think that if there are enough checks, fewer students would fail.
googling 16-19 further education you will find a slew of other examples
Let me try this one more time...
Like I said in the U.K at 16 you are given the choice to leave and further your education or stay at the school finish up A-Levels and go on. In the U.S not a lot of districts have the option to graduate early with a diploma. O.K so you get a G.E.D. What then? In the U.S we do not have special programs catered to 16 year olds at the vocational and community colleges like they do in the U.K. That is only open to who are still in high school.
Sure a 16 yr who feels he/she is ready can move on get the G.E.D and jump ship go to CC. But some others feel they are ready but are worried about being around older people (like you guys said). I was in that situation I was going to jump ship go on to a CC but I wanted to be with my age group.
What's wrong with the dual enrollment option? I did not want to go the dual enrollment route because for one they required me to have a car which I didn't at the time and I felt it would have been to much on me. Going back and forth 5 days a week and spending almost 8hrs a day at school? Who the hell would want that?
I hope I was more clear in this post
Last edited by nitokenshi; 11-11-2008 at 03:01 PM..
I spent a good deal of time writing a response, then hit the wrong button and blew it away! Anyway, the 11th year of public ed does not prepare a British student for college, for that they go two more years. Germany has a similar system. You can find all this in Wikipedia. France's system is a bit different, in that age 18 is considered the completion of one's education, 13 yrs, though not everyone receives an academic diploma. Some receive vocational or agricultural diplomas. The Yahoo article implies otherwise.
I spent a good deal of time writing a response, then hit the wrong button and blew it away! Anyway, the 11th year of public ed does not prepare a British student for college, for that they go two more years.
I know that's what I said they can choose to stay and finish their A-Levels or go to 6th form or they can go onto further education colleges.
I spent a good deal of time writing a response, then hit the wrong button and blew it away! Anyway, the 11th year of public ed does not prepare a British student for college, for that they go two more years. Germany has a similar system. You can find all this in Wikipedia. France's system is a bit different, in that age 18 is considered the completion of one's education, 13 yrs, though not everyone receives an academic diploma. Some receive vocational or agricultural diplomas. The Yahoo article implies otherwise.
I used to think that the European model of education did not allow a necessary range of opportunity for all students; however, I have since changed my mind based mostly on my experience as an inner-city teacher and that change was solidified by NCLB. There are just too many students who are not going to go to college right after high school, yet the school system presupposes that all students must be prepared for college. An alternative system that allows for students to acquire a determned set of skills and knowledge and then gain the skills and knowledge to prepare for a career, and students who are actually college bound stay in school for another two years to get ready for university seems a far more efficient use of limited resources.
I do wonder, what if the kid is just a late bloomer and wishes university later? I became someone's mother when I was sixteen and did not go to college until my mid-20s - would I have had to opportunity in the European system? I don't know.
RebeccaL, I hope that some of the interest and passion you use to argue your case here will be used to actually promote change in the educational system. I tell my children and my students, it is not enough to have an opinion, you need to act on that opinion. I hope you one day have plans to act.
I do wonder, what if the kid is just a late bloomer and wishes university later? I became someone's mother when I was sixteen and did not go to college until my mid-20s - would I have had to opportunity in the European system? I don't know.
Yes, further education colleges can be a route to university like community college is here. Some further education colleges even offer 4 yr degrees. Like community colleges here. But community colleges here are geared towards the older sect. They do not market towards teens like the FEs in the U.K.
I know a lot about how it is done in the U.K because when I was 16 my plan was to go there and finish up. Did extensive research so I am not talking out of my rear.
EDIT:
Opps I said 4 yr degrees in my post. In the U.K its 3yrs full-time and 4yrs part-time
Last edited by nitokenshi; 11-11-2008 at 03:53 PM..
^^^ thank you. I did not know and now I do. I have a daughter who wants to go to school in Barcelona - very different requirements that in the US.
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