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Old 04-01-2009, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland
5,749 posts, read 10,350,040 times
Reputation: 7010

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sike0000 View Post
I work with people from all over the world (mostly engineers) and let me tell you, if their country has better test scores than we do they waste a lot of time studying for nothing
I spent 5 years working internationally for the largest engineering firm in the world (hint: starts w/an "S"). On project teams in multiple countries, 9 times out of 10 (IMO), it was the American-educated worker who was the most creative (e.g. with new product design), the most flexible in dealing with change, and the strongest group leader. Coincidence? Or maybe there is also something good that they gained from the American education system.
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Old 04-01-2009, 12:28 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,795 posts, read 7,269,447 times
Reputation: 5194
I still have not read examples of what would cause you to hate the school system that badly. If you would have worded your OP differently you might have been able to start a thread with meaningful dicussions as to what we could do to change the system. I will start by saying we should ship our kids to these countries with their great education system, outstading tests scores, and bring them back here for college so they can then become "real" doctor's, engineers, professors

I did not intend to make friends or spare anyone's feelings when I wrote the OP. What I intended was to get people stirred up and to have a real discussion on this topic with as many people participating as possible. You do not attract posters with boring politically correct posts. Getting people angry and forcing them to think is how worthwhile debates are conducted. As far as my motives go, I take no joy in bashing anyone, I do worry about the country my children will inherit. It is clearly going in the wrong direction.
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Old 04-01-2009, 03:46 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,655 posts, read 57,732,068 times
Reputation: 46100
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCUBS1 View Post
I spent 5 years working internationally ... it was the American-educated worker who was the most creative ... Coincidence? Or maybe there is also something good that they gained from the American education system.
It's called 'garages...garden sheds, tinkering...'
I did many yrs of international engineering too. The 'Nationals' (native) co-worker's said it was because in the USA we tinkered and invented stuff (farmer / agrarian roots). Many of the Nationals were stuck in a flat (apartment) and had few hobbies. BUT...We USED to do this.... times are changing. Fortunately there are a few Vocational and technology teachers who still bring some 'venture' to the classroom. But, this too will pass.

The whole schooling thing needs to be 're-invented' (I say this as an 'antique' grad student (again)) The quality of new blood is pretty poor, especially those with creativity AND an ounce of reality. A Huge misnomer is the "entrepreneur" major.... That is breeding a lot of false hope. It is best to know 'something' before striking out to cash in on the world.
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Old 04-01-2009, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Drury Lane
825 posts, read 2,813,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
If you have an argument with the position, then you should make it. Simply infering that my observations are invalid, or asking for further proof is not an argument. Im glad you are having fun, but you are really not adding anything to the topic.
I do have an argument and I didn't infer your observations are invalid. I am questioning the validity of the observations in the first place. I'll restate just for fun.

What qualifies you, beyond your own statements, to make such broad conclusions about CD or public schools? Have you read every post or been in every public school? Have you taught children or have any of your own?
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Old 04-01-2009, 05:46 PM
 
6,066 posts, read 15,014,900 times
Reputation: 7188
Personally, I don't like to lump all public schools together and say that all of them are failing our kids and country. Truly, many public schools - especially those in lower-income neighborhoods and large overpopulated, congested cities (and especially those near southern borders) - are ill-equipped to meet even the lowest of academic expectations and certainly perform poorly under the massive challenges they are dealing with daily. But there are also many schools across the country who are doing wonderful things and providing an excellent education for those students who want to learn - and for those families who want to take advantage of what is being offered to them.

I think it's important to think about the number of students living at or near poverty compared to the number of students in this country living in more affluent homes. This makes a great impact on student - and school - achievement as well. I have actually begun going across town to help out low-income schools rather than spend all my time in my kids school. We live in an affluent neighborhood and our school has huundreds of parent volunteers and enough funds to get us through. In poorer neighborhoods, however, the schools do not have enough funds and hardly any parent volunteers at all. In poor areas, usually both parents must work or the families are single-parent families. Kids often go home to an empty house - there isn't anyone to help with homework or help fix a snack, etc. Teachers do not have parents in the classrooms helping with reading or studying with students. There aren't any, or enough, parents to help organize fundraisers or organize school events or help with field trips, etc. Schools in poor areas perform poorly because they do not have the support from the community that schools in more affluent areas have. Unfortunately in this country, it seems that there are more uninvolved parents than involved ones - due to financial reasons or other reasons. When the parents and families are not involved, the schools suffer.

I also feel that somehow the health care situation in our country is connected to our public education situation. This is just a hunch of mine. It's interesting to find that the countries which overall seem to have the highest performing public schools, also have Universal health care. In the states, many families are uninsured or under-insured or are struggling financially to pay their premiums or to pay for medical costs and expensive medicines that they need. I don't know whether this is a coincidence, or whether there is some connection here, but it is interesting. I was studying Finland when this thought came to me... then began looking up other countries who have Universal health care and then looking at how well their public schools perform and it was all right there. For whatever reason the countries with a good health care system also had good public school systems.
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:42 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,729 posts, read 44,535,751 times
Reputation: 13600
Quote:
Originally Posted by drjones96 View Post
I went to public school...as did many other successful Americans. My question to you is: How did I succeed where so many others failed?

I went to school with a bunch of foreigners. And let me tell you, I was hard pressed to see how these people who were supposed to be superior to me were actually any smarter. I frequently helped some of the Indian kids with their FORTRAN coding....because they didn't get it.

You want to be logical? How about this. We have been granted an extremely grand opportunity as citizens of this country and I see a bunch of lazy b@5tards who don't know how to take advantage of it. I see kids who could really care less about school...and their parents think they share no responsibility for their education. They lay it all on the system and are quick to call teachers 'poor educators'. Man, I've got a neighbor who's kid is dumb as a post, clearly has ADD, is a compulsive liar, displays violent tendencies, etc...I could go on but you get my point...AND SHE LAYS IT ALL ON HIS TEACHER AND THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM.

You know what I think? I think people need to step up and if their kids aren't cutting the mustard they need to crack that whip! They need to get involved. They need to give a rat's @55! That's what made the difference for me. You think I ever brought home a 'C' and expected to be congratulated? I see this crap all the time. "Congratulations....you passed!" WTF????? If my kids bring home a 'C' in my house they should expect an @55 ripping from both me and my wife. They will be grounded from everything including daylight! They will learn to value the education they receive and they will learn it is the only way they will ever get anywhere in this life.

Edit/Addition: I think our culture has gotten lazy and have developed a sense of entitlement to a certain extent. I think this is where a lot of problems come from. If people would wake the f up and realize that they aren't entitled to squat and that they have to work for it to get it maybe that would turn things around. I don't see it happening until the system really collapses.
I agree with much of what you've said, but how do you suggest responsible parents and diligent students handle the public schools that are holding them back?

A Nation Deceived: How Schools Hold Back America's Brightest Students
IRPA - A Nation Deceived - Executive Summary
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:49 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,729 posts, read 44,535,751 times
Reputation: 13600
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCUBS1 View Post
I spent 5 years working internationally for the largest engineering firm in the world (hint: starts w/an "S"). On project teams in multiple countries, 9 times out of 10 (IMO), it was the American-educated worker who was the most creative (e.g. with new product design), the most flexible in dealing with change, and the strongest group leader. Coincidence? Or maybe there is also something good that they gained from the American education system.
American universities, yes, because most have selective enrollment engineering programs - and students who aren't cutting it are removed from the program. Most public K-12 schools don't operate that way. Struggling and disruptive students remain in the class, monopolizing the teacher's time and attention. Everyone else's education suffers.
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Old 04-02-2009, 08:24 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,795 posts, read 7,269,447 times
Reputation: 5194
Quote:
Originally Posted by muffinman View Post
I do have an argument and I didn't infer your observations are invalid. I am questioning the validity of the observations in the first place. I'll restate just for fun.

What qualifies you, beyond your own statements, to make such broad conclusions about CD or public schools? Have you read every post or been in every public school? Have you taught children or have any of your own?
Your statement infers that someone is required to be "qualified" to make a statement on this forum. Who decides who or what "qualifies" someone to have an opinion. You? It sounds like an attempt to stifle free speech, or a veiled attempt at a personal attack. To question someone’s "qualifications” suggests that they are wrong, without having to make a legitimate argument that directly addresses the issue. Is it really necessary to have read "every post", or have visited "every school" to have an opinion on the subject? If that is the standard we are going to hold everyone to, then who among us is qualified to have an opinion? Yes I do have children and am very involved with their schools and education, I have nearly 500 posts on this forum. I have also been involved in the training of entry level workers for 20 years, so I see on a daily basis the results, and limitations of our educational system. None of those things really matter, as truth must be measured on its own merits, and not the "qualifications" of the person stating it. .

Last edited by jimhcom; 04-02-2009 at 09:45 AM..
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Old 04-02-2009, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Kansas
3,855 posts, read 13,243,534 times
Reputation: 1734
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
I agree with much of what you've said, but how do you suggest responsible parents and diligent students handle the public schools that are holding them back?

A Nation Deceived: How Schools Hold Back America's Brightest Students
IRPA - A Nation Deceived - Executive Summary
....move.
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Old 04-02-2009, 10:01 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,494 posts, read 4,539,813 times
Reputation: 3026
I just read all postings. It is very interesting to see a great variety of views. I concluded most have great points.

I believe that we as humans tend to believe our point is right to the point that it clouds what other may say and conclude they are wrong. Actually, I believe there is 'more than one way to skin a cat' as the saying goes. I would say if most take a step back and think will admit there are many good points, not conclude and attack on personal views.

Do I think we need more involvement from the community and the parents? I do think so. I also do think there are so many cumbersome restrictions and demands from many local school districts that negatively impact on the way many schools teach.

I do agree that there are parents that are so meddlesome to the point of been an interference to the best educational well being of a child.

I do volunteer work at a local elementary school and do see some parents that are out there demanding the school change their methods to suit their approval. The schools find themselves having to bend under pressure due to lawsuits, school disctric pressure, local leader threats, etc. On the other hand I do see parents that do get involved by asking the teachers what they can do to make sure their children do better in school.

I also am volunteer as a Court Appointed Special Advocate (CASA) on behalf of neglected and abused children. As handle cases I can see how so many children just do not have a sense of values because they never learned any of that at their homes. By the time they go to school, pretty much their values for life have been set and the schools have to deal with that deficiency. Many of those kids are good kids but they just look at you so puzzled because they cannot comprehend a simple concept like discipline when they have to put their book away or follow orders. It is sad. Sadly, many teachers do not know how to handle this problem and often make it worse and the result may be kids getting rebellious. After all they think things should be done as they learned at home so what mom and dad do is the way to do things or they just learned to do things their way due to lack of supervision.

Now, I am also a member of a local group that recruit mentors for children of prisoners. It is a program very similar to the Big Brother, Big Sister program. We focus on children of prisoners. Many of these children simply have no idea of many of the the concepts that for many of us are second nature. We need to understand children learn how to behave from a very young age well before they go to school. The schools have to handle all this societal deficiencies. I do believe there is a degree of unfairness in expecting school to fix all the baggage many of these kids bring when the start school.

I am also a rape/sexual assault victim advocate where I am stationed. As I attend classes and deal with cases I can also see how these problem affect children in the area of social interaction and relationships.

Finally, when I was stationed in Korea from 2001 to 2003 I saw the parenting my Soldiers had as I dealt with their problems. I had a nice kid for my driver. As we talked I could tell he was a very good kid but one that had no direction in life. I became his mentor and to this day he keeps in touch with me because of the guidance I gave him. He lived with his parents but raised himself. There are times that as I handle cases with young men and women, at the end of the day I went to my room and curse so many parents. Perhaps unfairly but to some degree I knew there was validity when I concluded many of those nice kids I had for Soldiers were good kids that simply had not good mentoring and role models in their lives.

My conclusion is that the school systems could be better, however, parent involvement could be better too. Also, too much government involvement can interfere with good education.

No, I do no have any data here with me. I have read a lot of that also but I am just giving my conclusions on what I have seen and read.

I do believe we do need to improve the education system for our kids though. By this I mean the OVERALL system and the means parents are part of it. A parent that makes sure the child doest the homework and checks for quality will help that child a lot.

My wife and I, mostly my wife, spent countless hours checking homework and very often had our daughters do the work again. It was not because some problems were wrong but because the work look unprofessional. They now reflect that home training in discipline and workmanship in their daily lives. However, I also know we were not overbearing. It is difficult to balance discipline so it does not go into the harrasment and/abusive level or become distructive and demeaning in nature either.

Now, if I made any spelling or grammatical mistakes, bear with me. All I can say is that the point is communication and communication is to pass information and/or ...well...communicate with others among other things.
If someone cannot go past a 'mispeling' mistake may not be able to see the point and that could be detrimental to communicating with others and learning from others.

You have a great day.
El Amigo
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