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...out of the U.S. -- That explains why our most advanced students rank at the bottom on international comparisons - advanced students who want to learn are advised to move elsewhere.
"U.S. students currently lag behind their international counterparts in basic science and math skills. When comparing the 8th grade test scores of American students with their international counterparts, the U.S. is in the 32nd percentile in math and the 59th percentile in science. Yet, these figures worsen when comparing 12th grade advanced math and physics students around the world, American students are in the lowly 6th percentile in math and at a bleak 0% in science."
K-12 Public Education: Ignoring Good Management Practices and Risking America's Future - Policy Note - Washington Policy Center (http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/Centers/education/policynote/04_rindlaub_k12education.html - broken link)
more fetishizing of international math-and-science scores
No offense, but why are you ignoring the people on this very thread who have said they have worked with engineers and scientists from other countries and said that the Americans usually have the best big-picture understanding of problems and the most creative insights and solutions? Could it be that education is more than what these tests measure?
No offense, but why are you ignoring the people on this very thread who have said they have worked with engineers and scientists from other countries and said that the Americans usually have the best big-picture understanding of problems and the most creative insights and solutions? Could it be that education is more than what these tests measure?
Confusing logic. Why would the opinion of 2 people outweigh the fact that test scores in this country are sub standard? Math and Science are hard skills, either you know them or you do not. Creative insights are not worth anything if you cannot do calculations or understand the fundamentals of science. I work with engineer’s routinely, and some of them leave me wondering how they ever got their degrees.
...out of the U.S. -- That explains why our most advanced students rank at the bottom on international comparisons - advanced students who want to learn are advised to move elsewhere.
"U.S. students currently lag behind their international counterparts in basic science and math skills. When comparing the 8th grade test scores of American students with their international counterparts, the U.S. is in the 32nd percentile in math and the 59th percentile in science. Yet, these figures worsen when comparing 12th grade advanced math and physics students around the world, American students are in the lowly 6th percentile in math and at a bleak 0% in science."
K-12 Public Education: Ignoring Good Management Practices and Risking America's Future - Policy Note - Washington Policy Center (http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/Centers/education/policynote/04_rindlaub_k12education.html - broken link)
My view may be pretty narrow. But I'd put my education up against any other public education system in the world.
In my measly graduating class of 63 people there have been ~10 scientists & engineers, 1 Anchorer at a Regional TV Station, 2 Dr's, ~10 educators, ~5 nurses, and this is just the part of the class that I've stayed in contact with. More than half the students in my graduating class went on to some form of higher education. I'd say that's not too shabby.
I get very sick of hearing how the rest of the world is sticking it to us on standardized tests. They really mean not a damn thing except they know how to take standardized tests. I'll concede something to you though. I did not do very well on the ACT. Heck...I was barely considered average. But I graduated from a very good engineering program with honors. So you tell me what matters more. Taking a meaningless test? Or Completing a Degree with honors?
No offense, but why are you ignoring the people on this very thread who have said they have worked with engineers and scientists from other countries and said that the Americans usually have the best big-picture understanding of problems and the most creative insights and solutions? Could it be that education is more than what these tests measure?
The potential is there, no doubt! But the development of high potential is not a priority in the American public school system. Students who want to learn at an advanced level in K-12 are advised to move elsewhere, as seen previously in this thread.
Revisit my comment on why engineers from American universities are well-educated. Yet American citizens are under-represented in the percentage of engineering program enrollments, and the percentage continues to decline. The Engineering Workforce Commission reports that the enrollment level of foreign national students has risen 18.6 percent at the freshman level and 14.7 percent at the graduate level. (Info available in the report available for order here, but it's expensive if you don't have access through a university or library, etc.: Engineering Workforce Commission)
After participating in this forum for some years I have come to the conclusion that a great number of the posters here are incapable of rational and logical thought. They take 2+2 and believe the solution is 7. The question that begs to be answered is how did they get that way? My conclusion is that it is the public school system. The abstract teachings that pass for education, has created a populous that does not understand the basic fundamentals that are the building blocks of true knowledge. They do not understand history, they have no concept of philosophy, they cannot follow a simply line of reasoning, Most struggle with simple math, or constructing a sentence. They are unable to understand the basics of economics, and why we are in the trouble that we are. They believe the same government that has caused our problems is somehow the solution
And people still wonder why we choose to homeschool...
Confusing logic.Why would the opinion of 2 people outweigh the fact that test scores in this country are sub standard? Math and Science are hard skills, either you know them or you do not. Creative insights are not worth anything if you cannot do calculations or understand the fundamentals of science. I work with engineer’s routinely, and some of them leave me wondering how they ever got their degrees.
It's not a matter of weighing the two against each other. It's a matter of those two people's experiences showing the limitations of these tests (by the way, their experiences are in no way "opinions," they're facts -- you just call them "opinions" because they don't support your point).
I don't see why you separate "creative insights" from "fundamentals of science." You can't even have creative scientific insights without understanding science on some level, and if your insights are scientifically useful, who the hell cares how you came to them?
The potential is there, no doubt! But the development of high potential is not a priority in the American public school system. Students who want to learn at an advanced level in K-12 are advised to move elsewhere, as seen previously in this thread.
Revisit my comment on why engineers from American universities are well-educated. Yet American citizens are under-represented in the percentage of engineering program enrollments, and the percentage continues to decline. The Engineering Workforce Commission reports that the enrollment level of foreign national students has risen 18.6 percent at the freshman level and 14.7 percent at the graduate level. (Info available in the report available for order here, but it's expensive if you don't have access through a university or library, etc.: Engineering Workforce Commission)
Yeah, but what are these would-be engineers doing? Many people intelligent enough to be engineers choose to do other things, such as finance, research, or start their own businesses. It seems like the broad education we have here awakens these passions in people, whereas if they had gone to school in India, maybe they would have to be engineers, because that's all they teach over there. Don't get me wrong, I know nothing about school in India. I'm just pointing out possible shortcomings with your point of view. The point of the American public school system is not to produce the most engineers. It's to make each citizen the best he can be.
A more practical problem with referencing international math-and-science tests: do you even know who is being tested? I mean, if the US results include everyone who isn't mentally disabled, while the Indian results include only people in private college prep schools, those results tell us nothing. I'm not saying that's the case, but I am saying it's a question you have to ask. You can't just point to a number and say, "Oh my God, we have to DO something!"
I get very sick of hearing how the rest of the world is sticking it to us on standardized tests. They really mean not a damn thing except they know how to take standardized tests.
I generally agree. I'm not sure they don't mean ANYTHING (I mean, try having an intelligent discussion with someone with a 800 SAT -- not happening), but no one seems to ask what they DO mean.
I also think arrogance, with a touch of ethnocentrism, is at the heart of a lot of the hype over getting beaten on these tests (NOT from people on this thread, just people in general). It's a "we're Americans, those people can't do anything as well as us" mentality. It's stupid, and it keeps us from continuing to excel in the areas we DO excel in.
I also think arrogance, with a touch of ethnocentrism, is at the heart of a lot of the hype over getting beaten on these tests (NOT from people on this thread, just people in general). It's a "we're Americans, those people can't do anything as well as us" mentality. It's stupid, and it keeps us from continuing to excel in the areas we DO excel in.
Yeah....there is that.
Here's an analogy: Lockheed developed the SR-71...starting in the late 50's. Crazy right? They came up with a concept for a Mach 3+ air-breathing aircraft over a half century ago....and made it happen! As a company Lockheed Martin likes to beat their chest over that accomplishment. But the thing is the technology that went into the development of that plane has pretty much been shelved. Anyway....An idea for an unmanned mach 4+ recon plane came up a few years back and an engineer in a meeting said, "well....we designed the SR-71 50 years ago....we can do this today." A fellow propulsion engineer that I know said, "YOU did not design the SR-71....your GRANDFATHER did."
The moral is that while we are capable of greatness sometimes we dwell on it a little too long. We went to the moon....and we haven't been back since.
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Why would the opinion of 2 people outweigh the fact that test scores in this country are sub standard? Math and Science are hard skills, either you know them or you do not. Creative insights are not worth anything if you cannot do calculations or understand the fundamentals of science. I work with engineer’s routinely, and some of them leave me wondering how they ever got their degrees.
