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Lets face it folks, a teacher will not fail a child who is working and is trying. The teacher will work with the student, and consideration will be given for a border line grade. Kids who don't try and do not give any effort, well that is another story.
Not always. As I said, there are definitely vindictive teachers that will not hesitate to fail a student even if they're trying. This is especially true in junior high school. When you consider Art as a subject, they're quick to fail you if they don't like what you drew/painted/rendered, even though you put your all into it. Hence the problem with that elective: it shouldn't be graded at all except on effort regardless whether that teacher individually likes what the student put out.
I have heard accusations of grade inflation at some colleges, but I have never heard of a school telling its professor to hold back on the F's. Out of all of the college profs that I have talked to I think that it is safe for me to say that none of them want to give F's but will if it came down to it. There seems to be a unifying motto amongst them to the effect of I don't give grades, students earn them.
I don't see the advantage for a college to keep a student on just because that student receives a scholarship. If you haven't noticed there are up to hundreds of students (depending on college) who are waiting in line to every one student who is admitted. If that student with the scholarship flunks out, big whoop-dee-do; there are a grip of kids to take his place.
The parents get involved? Are you serious? Even if they did, what can they do besides make themselves look like a couple of jacka$$es? And, unless these parents are alumni or contributors (financially) to the school, the school is not going to care who upset they are.
You've jumped the gun here.
I never said that it was a good thing that college administrators were asking profs not to give Fs. In fact, I don't think it's a good thing. But it's becoming a pervasive attitude not only in admin but among those profs who have an partial admin/partial teaching position, like deans. As a college teacher until recently, at two different schools, we were told to always think about what this would mean to the student if we gave them an F, and was it REALLY fair to make them retake the class...well, I didn't make the policy that a failing grade merits a repeat of the class, so I never saw that as my problem. It also wasn't my problem if a student never showed up, and I wasn't about to reward that behavior with a passing grade. I gave Fs whenever they were deserved.
As for parent involvement, you can bet that parents do get involved, and you can also bet that the schools do care. Trust me. Parents pay for the school and are hence the 'customers', along with their children, and so they expect a certain 'product' (grade) in return. This happened to me and my friends more times than I can count. A number of times the school would side with the student because an angry parent was present and threatened lawsuits, local media, whatever. If you have a good boss though, this doesn't happen.
This all made college teaching very hard. I have to say though, most students who got Fs in my class seemed to just accept it. They knew they'd done a poor job and just got over it. I even had one write me a note saying, after his F, "really sorry I sucked this semester. I wasn't at my best."
In private universities, I support Stanford's policy: no F's and drop deadline is right up until the final exam. It promotes risk taking and experimentation.
For public K-12 schools, I think F's are important as they provide valuable signals to the schools on their curriculum-pedagogy-student interface. If one drops F's, why not D's and C's? This is essentially what is happening at our universities. However, unlike university education, the investment in formative education accrues largely to the public.
How about public universities, those once-venerable institutions that are increasingly remedial in their role? Some middle ground is necessary. Fail the class and you can retake but at full expense, i.e. non subsidized). This would reduce the incentive to avoid F's and yet stimulate a more natural set of behaviors from students who enjoy taking risks.
But in my experience, F's at university are rare. In this age of grade inflation and consumerism in higher education, a D on the transcript in 2009 would be ugly. Elite schools are amongthe worst. C's are the "F's" of the elite schools.
But in my experience, F's at university are rare. In this age of grade inflation and consumerism in higher education, a D on the transcript in 2009 would be ugly. Elite schools are amongthe worst. C's are the "F's" of the elite schools.
Thank you, that was the point I was trying to make Teachers worry about giving Fs for the reasons I stated, so they inflate and make an F a D, or even a C, and so on. It's sort of self-censorship...no one ever says to you "you MUST change this grade to a passing grade", but you worry that they will so you make it a pass anyway.
I'm a teacher who believes in second chances, in theory anyway. IMO, if a student demonstrates mastery of the material late, they did demonstrate mastery. I prefer on time but I'll take late if that's all I can get. I don't give A's or B's the second time though. A C is the best you can do.
Now for reality. All this gets me is a lot of students doing a lot of late work. While I believe in the practice in theory, I find that all that's happening is students don't take learning seriously because they know they can just do it next week. When all is said and done, I don't think I've helped them so, next year, this policy gets tossed. I will, however, negotiate with failing students to get them to some level of proficiency in the material. That's just not going to be my "policy".
What's next? Not making them go to school at all because it's too much work or too upsetting? I keep running into subjects like this that include doing anything to avoid the experience of disappointment/sadness/anger of children or adolescents. Another thread that reminds me of this is about "co-sleeping," which is a word I never saw before. Sleep with your children so they don't get upset. WHAT?
As for this subject, if they don't do the work, or don't understand the material and don't approach the teacher, they don't deserve to pass. You have to learn to make an effort to get a reward. When you are done with school a job and a successful life are usually not just handed to you. What are they going to do when they get out of school? Failing is part of being a person. It happens, you don't like it, you fix it, you get over it. You can never feel proud of yourself if you never made an effort to get the job done in the first place.
I miss the old days when if you screwed up, you paid for it. This is how we learn!
What's next? Not making them go to school at all because it's too much work or too upsetting? I keep running into subjects like this that include doing anything to avoid the experience of disappointment/sadness/anger of children or adolescents. Another thread that reminds me of this is about "co-sleeping," which is a word I never saw before. Sleep with your children so they don't get upset. WHAT?
As for this subject, if they don't do the work, or don't understand the material and don't approach the teacher, they don't deserve to pass. You have to learn to make an effort to get a reward. When you are done with school a job and a successful life are usually not just handed to you. What are they going to do when they get out of school? Failing is part of being a person. It happens, you don't like it, you fix it, you get over it. You can never feel proud of yourself if you never made an effort to get the job done in the first place.
I miss the old days when if you screwed up, you paid for it. This is how we learn!
Multiple chances is reactionary. Schools are held accountable if students don't pass state tests. If we simply allow them to fail and move on, they don't pass the test.
While I agree students need to be held accountable, it's the schools that pay when students don't take responsiblity so the school must figure out how to get that student to pass if the student won't do it on their own.
In the old days, schools weren't graded and funded based on passing rates so they could say to a student "you didn't do the work, you don't pass". Now we have to figure out how to get them to passing because our funding depends on it.
Also, in theory, learning the material late is better than never learning it at all. Only problem is when you give multiple chances, students aren't motivated to do it the first time because they know they can do it tomorrow or the day after that. This is a no win situation.
I never said that it was a good thing that college administrators were asking profs not to give Fs.
ANd if you read the first paragraph of mine that you quoted you would see that I said ...I have never heard of... followed by...out of all the college profs that I have talked to I think that it is safe for me to say...
So where am I jumping the gun?
Also, not all parents pay for their children's education. Mine sure as heck didn't, and I started out at a community college. Not one penny. I know of a fair amount of other students who pay their own way through, regardless of age.
This already happens in a number of colleges. You are strongly advised to never give a student an F in case the student loses their scholarship, the school looks bad, the parents get involved etc.
Yes, a prof at Stanford told me something along those lines a few years ago. But I figure if you can get into Stanford, then grade-padding is probably moot. Unless you're competing for grad school with others from state schools, etc, where they don't do that.
No, school should be harder, not easier. Kids have to be taught responsibility for the timeliness of their work. Responsibility for the correctness of their work. And the consequences for failing those responsibilities. These are habits and lessons that are learned early in life and stick with you for life.
Next time I do cpr on someone and they die, the patient isn't going to get an H stamped on them in heaven and then sent down for me to have a second go at them. It's ridiculous.
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Teachers worry about giving Fs for the reasons I stated, so they inflate and make an F a D, or even a C, and so on. It's sort of self-censorship...no one ever says to you "you MUST change this grade to a passing grade", but you worry that they will so you make it a pass anyway.
