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Old 05-14-2009, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
8,998 posts, read 14,813,412 times
Reputation: 3550

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnydee View Post
The best teachers could not make significant gains unless there was home support as well.


You also can't make some kids want an education, as sad as that is.
Many of my teachers went the extra mile to help students: staying after school hours, meeting students on the weekend to go over material they might have not understood in class, coming in before school hours, and trying to teach the lesson in many different ways (a way in which those who learn visually can benefit, those who learn by listening can benefit, etc.).

Some students still didn't take advantage of these opportunities and just had a general, "Screw it" attitude about the class or school in general.
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Rockland County New York
2,984 posts, read 5,866,876 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weekend Traveler View Post
When students in poverty stricken ghetto schools fail most of the blame always goes to the teachers and principal. Very little official blame goes to our messed up culture, the parents, or the sweet little students. It is easier to blame the teachers and administrators.

I know there are some really bad teachers at some really bad schools, but I wonder if even the best teachers and principals could turn around some of the terrible under performing schools.

If the hundred best teachers in the country were assigned to teach at the worst school in America would there really be that much change?
No I believe they wouldn't. These young people can not tell the difference between a diamond and a piece of quartz. In NYC their behavior is so bad that they make it a game to break their teacher’s spirit. After a while many teachers simply ask themselves is this what their teaching career is supposed to be about. You can't blame those who quit.
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Old 05-15-2009, 04:58 AM
 
Location: Key Largo, FL
41 posts, read 172,264 times
Reputation: 65
Default Harlem Schools

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/08/op...%20zone&st=cse

There is an interesting op/ed piece about this in the NY Times.
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Old 05-15-2009, 08:33 AM
 
943 posts, read 3,166,516 times
Reputation: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spagettio View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/08/op...%20zone&st=cse

There is an interesting op/ed piece about this in the NY Times.
I read that article and it was a little biased. The liberals and the New York Times never want to admit that much of the problem at schools are race, IQ and economic based. They believe that everyone is wonderful and with the right teachers everyone can be a genius and run a company or be a doctor. The reality is much different. Ever read Animal Farm?

What they do not say is the successful schools in Harlem have a hand picked student body in many cases and are not the worst of the worst I described in my original posting.
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Old 05-15-2009, 08:34 AM
 
Location: southern california
61,286 posts, read 87,592,859 times
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its hard to teach algebra when you are being gang raped in the stairwell.
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Old 05-15-2009, 09:00 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,918,226 times
Reputation: 834
I went to a ghetto school. There guns, violence, lock downs. I obtained my IB diploma and got a 4.45 gpa. Many upper middle class parents clamored to put their kids at my high school. Because the teachers were REALLY good. My dad had a choice to put me here (30 miles from my home) or a rich school MUCH closer to home (about 3 miles or so). He taught there, and thought it would be a good idea. It was. Scary at first, but intellectually challenging.

Experienced teachers know how to handle a lot of situations. Advanced programs motivate and challenge the kids. With a healthy tutor support system (which it had), and caring teachers a school can make significant in roads.

Demographics did play a part. About a quarter of the kids were middle/upper middle class (with a few very wealthy kids). That impact caused some friction, but it also caused for some diffusion. I'm more aware of the ghetto, and some other people have more middle class attitudes (the "hey, I can go to college" attitude of the middle class). Mixed income schools are a good thing.
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Old 05-15-2009, 09:24 AM
 
1,122 posts, read 2,322,378 times
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I hate the idea that the students and families would be blamed for the lack of ability for schools to be able to do their jobs. I have tutored chidlren where the school said they had a learning disability and turned it around in just a few weeks so they were top of the class.

Number one, when you walk into a ghetto school, you have to take ownership and decide that these children will learn and throw away all those prejudices that were taught to you in college that clearly segergates learning ability by class.

Number two, you have to match the students and teachers based off learning ablilities and styles.

Number three, you have to find a way to get these students to take ownership and want to learn.

Number four, you have to try teaching in multiple ways to students with different learning styles can effectively learn together.

Number five, you have to BELIEVE you will make a difference. I believe that teachers walk in thinking that they want to make a difference but end up believing they can not because they were never ready for such a huge challenge and do not really know how to approach it and often feel like they are doing it all alone.

Last edited by flik_becky; 05-15-2009 at 09:39 AM..
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Old 05-15-2009, 09:29 AM
 
31,690 posts, read 41,122,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
I went to a ghetto school. There guns, violence, lock downs. I obtained my IB diploma and got a 4.45 gpa. Many upper middle class parents clamored to put their kids at my high school. Because the teachers were REALLY good. My dad had a choice to put me here (30 miles from my home) or a rich school MUCH closer to home (about 3 miles or so). He taught there, and thought it would be a good idea. It was. Scary at first, but intellectually challenging.

Experienced teachers know how to handle a lot of situations. Advanced programs motivate and challenge the kids. With a healthy tutor support system (which it had), and caring teachers a school can make significant in roads.

Demographics did play a part. About a quarter of the kids were middle/upper middle class (with a few very wealthy kids). That impact caused some friction, but it also caused for some diffusion. I'm more aware of the ghetto, and some other people have more middle class attitudes (the "hey, I can go to college" attitude of the middle class). Mixed income schools are a good thing.
Do the best teachers live close to the worse performing schools. In addition to being assigned would they be relocated? Would they be allowed to resign and reapply to the district of their choice? Would all that is considered freedom be stripped from them because they had done a good job? Would the weaker teachers be rewarded by being relocated to the suburbs and other regions of the country? Would the former good schools now with the assigned weaker teaches create a tax rebellion in the very communities that are paying the most taxes to support public education? The poor are poor for a reason and people work where they want to for a reason. That does not mean that poor folks are poor because of their own doing. Nor does it mean that they aren't responsible for much of their condition. Don't the best companies get the best sales people? Don't the best engineering companies get the best engineers. Are teachers any less worthy of respect and self actualization?
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Old 05-15-2009, 09:31 AM
 
31,690 posts, read 41,122,725 times
Reputation: 14440
Quote:
Originally Posted by flik_becky View Post
I hate the idea that the students and families would be blamed for the lack of ability for schools to be able to do their jobs. I have tutored chidlren where the school said they had a learning disability and turned it around in just a few weeks so they were top of the class.

Number one, when you walk into a ghetto school, you have to take ownership and decide that these children will learn and throw away all those prejudices that were taught to you in college that clearly segergates learning ability by class.
Number two, you have to match the students and teachers based off learning ablilities and styles.
Number three, you have to find a way to get these students to take ownership and want to learn.
Number four, you have to try teaching in multiple ways to students with different learning styles can effectively learn together.
Number five, you have to BELIEVE you will make a difference. I believe that teachers walk in thinking that they want to make a difference but end up believing they can not because they were never ready for such a huge challenge and do not really know how to approach and often feel like they are doing it all alone.
Good point and the highly effective suburban teachers might not buy into this so leave them alone. Let them exercise their free will to work and live where the want.
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Old 05-15-2009, 10:13 AM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,918,226 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Do the best teachers live close to the worse performing schools. In addition to being assigned would they be relocated? Would they be allowed to resign and reapply to the district of their choice? Would all that is considered freedom be stripped from them because they had done a good job? Would the weaker teachers be rewarded by being relocated to the suburbs and other regions of the country? Would the former good schools now with the assigned weaker teaches create a tax rebellion in the very communities that are paying the most taxes to support public education? The poor are poor for a reason and people work where they want to for a reason. That does not mean that poor folks are poor because of their own doing. Nor does it mean that they aren't responsible for much of their condition. Don't the best companies get the best sales people? Don't the best engineering companies get the best engineers. Are teachers any less worthy of respect and self actualization?
See it's more about retention. A weak teacher is usually inexperienced. So instead of "weak" or "bad", let's be more precise and state inexperienced.
My dad was a teacher. I almost became a teacher, actually I was a tutor for autistic children for a while. I also was a tutor for a third grade class.

A good teacher is simply more experienced. These teachers have been around the block. Most of my teachers that taught the advanced classes were there for 10-20 even 30 years. Unheard of in this type of environment. In most poor school districts, they are REALLY new teachers. Turnover is VERY high.

Frankly, inexperienced teachers would do much better in richer communities. The reason for this is because it is an easier transition. Also because there will still a lot of experienced teachers and a great support to learn.

Re-applying to a district of choice is a bad idea. There are MASSIVE paycuts to take into consideration (if my dad left, he would take a 20k a year cut to teach at a better district...since I was still young he couldn't afford it). He would have went from making 100k to about 80k a year (including summer work).

We should increase teacher salaries in poor districts to retain them. Even though you enter teaching not for the money, teachers do deserve "respect and self actualization".
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