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Old 07-17-2016, 08:42 AM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,766,452 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayesian View Post
You need to be intelligent and hard working to excel academically. Actually, being genuinely interested in your study is more important than hard work. You'll naturally spend more time on your interests.

Affirmative Action doesn't work for a reason. I think everybody knows what it is, I don't bother to bring it up.
Nonsense. Look at the Ronald McNair academy. Excellent school, urban, predominantly black or Hispanic, predominately poor.
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Old 07-17-2016, 10:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Weekend Traveler View Post
When students in poverty stricken ghetto schools fail most of the blame always goes to the teachers and principal. Very little official blame goes to our messed up culture, the parents, or the sweet little students. It is easier to blame the teachers and administrators.

I know there are some really bad teachers at some really bad schools, but I wonder if even the best teachers and principals could turn around some of the terrible under performing schools.

If the hundred best teachers in the country were assigned to teach at the worst school in America would there really be that much change?
No. Study after study shows that it isn't the teacher so much as the student and parents. Even when some amazing leader has managed to turn around a low-performing school, it's always been short-term and hasn't lasted beyond a few years, when everyone gets totally burned out and can't sustain it anymore. I worked in a low-performing school, and we had the best teachers in the district. We got more money for training and more money in salary. It didn't help.
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Old 07-17-2016, 10:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Mnseca View Post
No. Study after study shows that it isn't the teacher so much as the student and parents. Even when some amazing leader has managed to turn around a low-performing school, it's always been short-term and hasn't lasted beyond a few years, when everyone gets totally burned out and can't sustain it anymore. I worked in a low-performing school, and we had the best teachers in the district. We got more money for training and more money in salary. It didn't help.
I have heard that some first-generation college students from poor neighborhood cannot even survive the first year, because they don't know what to expect, and their parents don't know what to expect either. Some parents don't understand why their kids full-time in college cannot work 40 hours a week, after all, you don't need to sit in the classroom for 40 hours!

They just don't have the mentality for serious education. Some well-educated parents don't make a lot of money, but they are better at fostering a learning environment.
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Old 07-17-2016, 03:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayesian View Post
I have heard that some first-generation college students from poor neighborhood cannot even survive the first year, because they don't know what to expect, and their parents don't know what to expect either. Some parents don't understand why their kids full-time in college cannot work 40 hours a week, after all, you don't need to sit in the classroom for 40 hours!

They just don't have the mentality for serious education. Some well-educated parents don't make a lot of money, but they are better at fostering a learning environment.


In many ways I think that comes from the same basic attitude that


a. I don't need no stinkin' education and I done just fine.
b. College is nothing more that parties, sex, and drinking.


They just don't see how college can be hard because it isn't work. If you ever sit down and discuss education with these folks (and this has nothing to do with race or income but only with how they view education) you'll find they just don't see it as valuable. I've tried with some of the kids and their parents in the youth orgs I volunteer with and they just can't see it. Even at the elementary and middle school levels, these parents are lost. I feel sad for the kids; they may as well be living in a 3rd world country for all their parents care about the education they are provided.
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Old 07-18-2016, 04:09 AM
 
9,952 posts, read 6,705,386 times
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Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Nonsense. Look at the Ronald McNair academy. Excellent school, urban, predominantly black or Hispanic, predominately poor.
The Tampa Bay Times did a long series last year on ending busing in Pinellas county and how it affected many schools in the district. Many of the schools went from being average schools to being the worst performing in the district.

There were other "fundamental" schools that were A/high-performing schools that parents in those lower-income communities wanted to go to that moved to mostly white communities. However, since fundamental schools don't have transportation, the parents in the communities that lost the fundamental schools could no longer get their kids to school. Meanwhile, the schools that converted from the fundamental schools to regular schools saw drastically decreased performance because the parents no longer had to sign discipline contracts for their kids. Most of the teachers at those schools left because there were too many disciplinary problems.

Even before the busing ended, Pinellas county has been a place where new teachers start down south and move up the county as they get more experience. With the state pushing for more "performance-based" measures of salary and keeping your job, it's even less appealing to stay in those schools. Teachers are afraid they'll be fired if they can't show any improvement there.

There are plenty of parents of kids in low-performing schools that want their kids to do well, but when faced with all the issues of those schools such as bad behavior (from other kids) and parents who simply don't care, their kids fail as well.

Florida has now passed a new law where you can send your kid to any school with open slots as long as you can transport your kid there, but again, that doesn't solve the problem if a parent doesn't have reliable transportation to get a child to school.

I know we do have Teach for America and other similar programs, but I'm not sure how successful it is to put brand new teachers with no experience in those schools. Many young people who go into that are simply in it to get the scholarship/grad school rewards doing that program gives and have no interest in staying in it for the long term.
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Old 07-18-2016, 06:06 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 4,009,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
In many ways I think that comes from the same basic attitude that


a. I don't need no stinkin' education and I done just fine.
b. College is nothing more that parties, sex, and drinking.


They just don't see how college can be hard because it isn't work. If you ever sit down and discuss education with these folks (and this has nothing to do with race or income but only with how they view education) you'll find they just don't see it as valuable. I've tried with some of the kids and their parents in the youth orgs I volunteer with and they just can't see it. Even at the elementary and middle school levels, these parents are lost. I feel sad for the kids; they may as well be living in a 3rd world country for all their parents care about the education they are provided.
I think it's more than that - they are barely parenting in the sense most of us here think of it. Most of them have so many problems of their own that the kids are lucky if they get fed, much less sent to college. I mean, just a few examples off hand - single mom with multiple kids with multiple fathers and a bad case of drug addiction; one or both parents in jail; abusive boyfriend or father; homelessness; any combination of the previous, and the list goes on.
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Old 07-18-2016, 06:51 PM
 
3,670 posts, read 7,172,360 times
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I'm sure they could but I'm not sure they would want to
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Old 07-18-2016, 07:26 PM
 
12,882 posts, read 9,115,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnseca View Post
I think it's more than that - they are barely parenting in the sense most of us here think of it. Most of them have so many problems of their own that the kids are lucky if they get fed, much less sent to college. I mean, just a few examples off hand - single mom with multiple kids with multiple fathers and a bad case of drug addiction; one or both parents in jail; abusive boyfriend or father; homelessness; any combination of the previous, and the list goes on.

Oh, yes I agree there, but I wasn't even talking about those with that kind of problem. I'm talking about kids with two parents at home, working, not the problems we typically think of. It's just these folks really don't believe in education beyond basics. Almost as if they are stuck in an 1800s mindset that all you need is the ability to sign your name and count your pay. It's really strange to talk with them and hear this mindset.
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Old 07-21-2016, 10:30 PM
 
2,547 posts, read 4,235,012 times
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nice to see realistic responses on this thread, for a change. Too often when the topic of good versus bad schools comes up on the forums, the PC crowd jumps in yelling how ratings don't matter, demographics don't matter, ghetto schools can be great, good teachers make all the difference, a student with the right mindset will succeed anywhere, blah blah blah. All rose-glassed platitudes that are the absolute rare exceptions to the rule.
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Old 07-29-2016, 08:39 AM
 
2,643 posts, read 2,629,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilCookie View Post
nice to see realistic responses on this thread, for a change. Too often when the topic of good versus bad schools comes up on the forums, the PC crowd jumps in yelling how ratings don't matter, demographics don't matter, ghetto schools can be great, good teachers make all the difference, a student with the right mindset will succeed anywhere, blah blah blah. All rose-glassed platitudes that are the absolute rare exceptions to the rule.
While I'm of the agreement that switching teachers between "good and bad schools" wouldn't change things, I disagree with much of what you say. Yes demographics matter and teachers can't be expected to fill the void in a kid's life caused by out-of-school factors. But ratings ARE junk, ghetto schools can be better than people expect, and kids from those schools can and have done well. There's no reason to scoff at kids who have gone through those schools.
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