Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-10-2007, 05:22 AM
 
Location: State College PA
402 posts, read 2,213,777 times
Reputation: 272

Advertisements

I tell ya, if that happens, I certainly would've been one that was lost, and I wouldn't have the professional degree now....I'm a visual learner. Darned it if books don't stick in my brain! (meaning: there's a large percentage of people like me out there....I don't think it COULD happen...to many children wouldn't make it!)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-10-2007, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Vero Beach, Fl
2,976 posts, read 13,394,077 times
Reputation: 2265
Responsibility, guidance, ethics, and motiviation needs to start at home. Too many parents leave much too much to the schools and teachers to do what they do not.

We have a system where a band aid approach has been used and it needs a radical overhauling. The students that we have seen as college freshmen (and beyond) can not write a complete sentence let alone a paragraph or convey a coherant thought; where some foreign students write and speak English better than their American peers, where students believe by paying for a college class gives them an automatic A (really) - I could go on.

Education needs to start at home.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-12-2007, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,120 posts, read 8,082,662 times
Reputation: 2084
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksburg View Post
Most countries are having shortage of scientists and engineers,including America.However,America can issue more H1B visas and green cards to solve the problem,there are a lot of legal immigrants are scientists and engineers.
If we have a real shortage, then the American free market will correct itself as people train to become qualified to fill the shortage. (There's a reason so many people desperately fight to try to get into medical school.)

What leads you to believe that America has a shortage of scientists and engineers during a time when the nation's job market is only barely keeping up with the population growth of working-aged Americans? (Stats also show that the jobs that are being created are in non-import-export sensitive areas of the economy and that most are low-wage service jobs.) You can't trust the politicians and business leaders to tell the truth because the politicians are backed by wealthy interests and the business leaders want to import foreign labor in the hopes of (shortsightedly) decreasing their labor costs and increasing profits.

Did you know that America has an oversupply of Ph.D. scientists, especially life sciences researchers? I'm sure that will come as a shock to most people, but it's true. Your average American life sciences Ph.D. graduate (with a degree in chemistry, molecular biology, or biochemistry, etc.) has difficulty finding a career job after graduation (this after 9-10 (!!!) years of college education). The end result? They end up underemployed earning $30,000/year (often with no or little benefits) working two-three year gypsy scientist positions called postdoctorates in the hopes of being able to get a teaching or professor job at a university or being able to get a job as a researcher for a private (biotech) company. Many move on from one postdoctorate to the next.

I bet most Americans don't know that.

We also have an oversupply of computer programmers--these folks were laid off and their jobs were shipped to India (or filled by foreigners on H-1B or L-1 visas). Sometimes they even have to train their replacements in order to get severance before being laid off. This is where the phrase, "My job was bombed by the H-1B" comes from. Even jobs in the field of patent law are being sent overseas.

Basically--if it isn't almost literally nailed down to the soil and if it is a knowledge-based job that can be performed on a computer--then it can be done anywhere in the world and doesn't need to be performed by Americans. Many engineering jobs would fall into that category.

Economist and former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury (under Reagan) Paul Craig Roberts has written op-eds on this issue. Here's a good one:

http://www.vdare.com/roberts/050904_marx.htm

Thought for Labor Day: Conservative Dogma Pulling Marx Out of His Grave (Excerpts)

"According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ 10-year jobs forecast, the majority of US jobs that will be created in the coming decade will be in domestic services that do not require a college education. This is a strange job outlook for a high tech economy allegedly benefiting from free trade.Domestic services are nontradable."

"The US economy has not created a net new job in tradable goods and services in the 21st century."

"Outsourcing is eliminating entire American occupations in engineering and information technology. As there are fewer jobs for graduates, engineering enrollments in the US are declining."

"For engineering and IT jobs that remain in the US, fewer are filled by Americans. US firms have learned that they can pay foreigners on H-1B and L-1 work visas lower salaries, force their American employees to train their foreign replacements, and then discharge their American workers. Consequently, there is double-digit unemployment among American software engineers, IT professionals and computer programmers."

Last edited by Bhaalspawn; 04-12-2007 at 07:05 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-12-2007, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,120 posts, read 8,082,662 times
Reputation: 2084
Quote:
Originally Posted by vetegnc View Post
Ummm...I'm not sure I see an 18 year old saying, "well, my heart was set on being a chemical engineer, but those jobs are either overseas or low paying, so now I think I'll flip burgers at MickeyD's instead"....I tend to think those people would just take a different career.
I think Chemical Engineering is doing decently right now, in part because of opportunities in the energy industries.

However, the same cannot be said for many other fields. Of course, people can always "take a different career", but what does that require? Might it require even more schooling--more time and money spent on education only for a license to compete with other graduates in that new field?

In an area that I'm more familiar with, many of those biotech PhDs (mentioned in the last post) decided to leave science for a field they never would have dreamed of working in before they started their graduate studies. Some of them left for...<drum roll> law school in the hopes of becoming high-paid patent attorneys. (So, as a reward for 9-10 years of graduate study they get to spend lots of money on tuition and living expenses and do three more years of college education.) Unfortunately...a whole bunch of those PhDs had the exact same idea (not to mention others with Masters degrees and mere Bachelors degrees) and now we have a large oversupply of people who are qualified to work as chemistry or biotech patent lawyers. (We already have a huge oversupply of regular lawyers, so the prospects for finding a job in another area of law wouldn't be as bright as in patent law.)

So, what should those guys who couldn't find jobs in the field (maybe they do good work but are just bad interviewers) and who now have 12-13 years of education do? Train for yet another field? Not having secured a job after graduation and nearing age 30, their degrees are quickly losing their employment values. (When an oversuppy of people is present in a certain field, employers can easily dismiss inexperienced applicants who are not recent graduates and just assume that they are losers.) Maybe they could do two more years of education and get MBAs (another field with a large oversupply of degree holders).

It should also be noted that the engineering fields do not employ a particularly large percentage of the populace anyway and that even if jobs (for Americans) were widely available in that field, it could still only accommodate a relatively small number of additional graduates. In other words--everyone's training to become an engineer is not the answer. Besides, some of the engineering fields have lackluster job markets. (Unsurprisingly, many engineers flee for law school, too, seeking better pay and better careers, though it should be noted that electrical engineering patent law offers much better career prospects than biotech patent law since more jobs are available relative to the supply of practitioners than for biotech patent law.)

So...the question for the media and the politicians and the pundits is...

Retrain...Reeducate...for what?

Last edited by Bhaalspawn; 04-12-2007 at 07:09 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-12-2007, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,120 posts, read 8,082,662 times
Reputation: 2084
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
I also disagree that 10 years ago the US was at the top. I remember when I was in high school, much more then 10 years ago, and the big ta-do was that the US was so low in the national rankings in the math/science areas.
I've concluded that the concerns about the science and math rankings are overblown (aside from what I said earlier about how the nation's impoverished children pull down the rankings).

It sounds good, politically, for politicians to be concerned and the media likes to score points by sensationalizing it. However, we need to ask ourselves--why does it matter? What exactly is the relationship of those stats to the need for people to have knowledge in those fields?

Of course, it would be wonderful if we lived in an advanced high-tech future society where people really did need to have that kind of knowledge, but the fact is that we do not.

Does the hairdresser really need to understand differential equations? Does the truck driver need to know about quantum mechanics? Does the carpenter need to understand biochemistry? Does the real estate agent need to understand calculus?

The real issue is whether or not our universities can produce enough scientists and engineers to meet the economy's demand for American scientists and engineers and whether we have enough students who are interested in those areas to fill that demand. Yes--we do, and they do a fine job of learning the material. (Note that we have a tremendous oversupply of people who want to go to medical school.)

What do the national education rankings really mean? Perhaps they mean that a European hairdresser will have a better grasp of math and science than an American hairdresser? Perhaps a European real estate agent will know more about quantum mechanics than an American real estate agent? Big whoopee.

I suspect that only a surprisingly small percentage of jobs in the world and even in the U.S. make real use of a college education. Certainly specialized fields like science, engineering, computers, and medicine would make use of it, but the number of Americans employed in those fields is relatively small. Accounting and advanced business functions would also make use of it. But what about most business management jobs? Is college education really necessary for that? Of course, people need to have bachelors degrees in order to get hired for those jobs and the degrees provide evidence of intelligence, motivation, and work ethic, but does the actual doing of the work really require having or even make use of a college education?

Is it thus possible that a portion, perhaps a very large portion, of our nation's tremendous expenditures for college education (time and money) is actually a waste of time and money that constitutes a large economic inefficiency? Of course, having a college education carries with it non-economic spiritual and personal values, but the same could be said for travelling around the world.

I'll always remember a comment from an invited speaker at a science department seminar. I believe he was discussing science careers or at least science research funding (or rather the shortage of federal research funding and the strain it had been placing on universities and grant-seeking professors) and he asked, rhetorically, "Does <Your> State University really need a chemistry department? A couple lecturers could be hired to teach the med students, but is it really necessary for the University to do research in this area (maintaining about 40 chemistry professors and laboratory research facilities when only 6 professors and no research facilities would be needed to teach chemistry to the pre-meds)?"

Last edited by Bhaalspawn; 04-12-2007 at 07:15 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-12-2007, 07:39 PM
 
5,019 posts, read 14,138,190 times
Reputation: 7092
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhlcomp View Post
Responsibility, guidance, ethics, and motiviation needs to start at home. Too many parents leave much too much to the schools and teachers to do what they do not.
Can I get an "amen" from the choir on that???

Time and time again, on these forums, I see people, vainly, searching for "good schools" (always with "low taxes"..which makes me laugh...but I digress...).

ANY school is as good as YOU the PARENT make it. Hellllloooooo. You can send your child to a $$$, highly ranked, private prep school, but if YOU are aloof, disinterested, and dismissive of your child, your precious angel may indeed rebel and fall through the cracks.

I, thankfully, had the opposite experience. Poor single mom (me), mediocre (according to test scores!) schools in the south and midwest (peppered with some AWEsome and inspiring teachers!), coupled with a motivated youngster( my daughter) and a "sure we can do that" attitude (mom again)= acceptance into a difficult program at a highly regarded private university.

As for Bill Gates....the man~does~ put his money where his mouth is. Say what you will about MS, his foundation granted boatloads of $$$ to my daughter's university, and for that I am grateful.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-13-2007, 05:50 AM
 
20,793 posts, read 61,450,823 times
Reputation: 10696
Another think to look at when comparing the US to European/Asian schools is that only the best and the brightest go on to more advanced schooling. If we are comparing our high school kids to their high school kids they have already taken the non-college track kids out of that system and put them in more of a technical college route so we are comparing ALL of our kids to their top kids. I would venture a guess if we took the scores of the top 20% of our kids and the top 20% of their kids we would be significantly higher.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-14-2007, 05:22 PM
 
Location: Red Bluff, CA
33 posts, read 214,066 times
Reputation: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Another think to look at when comparing the US to European/Asian schools is that only the best and the brightest go on to more advanced schooling. If we are comparing our high school kids to their high school kids they have already taken the non-college track kids out of that system and put them in more of a technical college route so we are comparing ALL of our kids to their top kids. I would venture a guess if we took the scores of the top 20% of our kids and the top 20% of their kids we would be significantly higher.
Good Point.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2007, 08:32 PM
 
19,977 posts, read 30,338,307 times
Reputation: 40078
why do we expect anything different??? we (schools) have gone from an achievement/results, reward system,,to a "feel-good" system. we've taken discipline out of schools,,,,and many schools,,to avoid liability (gettin sue'd)
have to tip-toe around stupid legalities.
schools are top heavy,,,,,think they can cut superintendents and thier staff in half,,pay teachers more,,,but also,,review how effective the teachers are,
many schools,,dont even have a grading system!!! its pass/fail, so as not to offend anyone,, wtf????
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:20 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top