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Where did I say anything about taking away rights? Talk about twisting what I said.
What I said is homeschooling isn't proven to be better than public school. As a parent, I'm not sure why you'd choose an unproven comodity over a proven one. Well, at least proven to be better. I would expect the demographic that matches homeschooling demographics to do very well in school. I have no clue why parents choose to have their kids homeschooled when results don't match what demographics would predict. Seems illogical to me.
When you wrote the following comment, I took that to mean that homeschooling should be roundly rejected because it remains unproven. If I misunderstood, I apologize.
Quote:
Because public schools aren't a guarantee, we should accept something that doesn't deliver the results demographics alone would predict?
I am trying very hard to understand your position even as I disagree. Please don't use offensive smilies to imply that I am deliberately twisting your words in an attempt to discredit you. I value this conversation and think we both stand to benefit from the open exchange of ideas, regardless of whether or not we ultimately find common ground.
Last edited by formercalifornian; 07-01-2009 at 02:54 PM..
Where are you coming up with the premise that public schools have better results with similar demographics than homeschools? And why do you keep insisting that only middle class white people homeschool? There are people of all colors in my homeschool group, and some of them are single parents. Many families have a special needs child. Many took their children out of school because their children were failing in school. What "better results" are you looking for? Are you basing this on standardized tests (a very faulty way of assessing children)? You do realize that most homeschoolers don't teach to the tests the way public schools do, right? Furthermore, what about private schools?
Beanandpumpkin brings up an important issue. Where are you getting your numbers? I think this conversation may lead to more productive debate if we are all working from the same page.
Just because you have "all colors" in your homeschool group, does not mean that you have all SES groups represented. Lower SES families, ie. in poverty, typically are not homeschooling their kids. Single parents that can homeschool still are within a given economic background. Parents that are not educated themselves and do not have means to support themselves are not homeschooling.....period! You need to have some type of education to homeschool your kids period, and this is middle class parents. I am sorry that you do not recognize that but it is what it is. I am offended that your idea (beanandpumpkin) of SES is "people of all colors". Oh my........
Private schools have their own problems in themselves, and I think it would be best to take that out of the mix. There is a difference in paying for education, and what is provided in public education. I think that we could start a whole discussion board about that.......
Standardized tests are a crappy way of assessing children, I agree, but there has to be some type of assessment. If you don't teach to the test, which I despise by the way, and you are still providing substantial learning opportunities then homeschool kids should still be able to excel on standardized tests. If you learn the material at home and are performing on grade level, then you should atleast be able to do what your public school peers do on tests. Doesn't the state that you homeschool in still require your homeschool student to take some type of standardized test? There has to be some type of proof that learning has occurred.
I think what Ivory is trying to say is that if you took a homeschooled kid (middle class student) and compared them to their peers in a public school setting, the homeschooled kids should be performing way better then thier public schooled peer (middle class student). So lets say that both hypothetical students take standardized tests (for a measurement, because we need to measure), the homeschooled kid (with one on one instruction, many more hours devoted to learning, and huge amounts of parental involvement) should blow the public school kid out of the water on the tests. Statistically, we need to find some here I agree, the homeschool child is only performing slightly better than average (which is where the public school kids is performing?). I hope that I read you right their Ivory. Which means, when we find the stats that you want, that homeschool is not the end all and be all that some claim it to be at this point.
Now there are a multitude of reasons to homeschool, to each his own, that is great! I agree with Ivory that most of the kids that excel at homeschool would excel in a public school setting as well. If you get a self motivated kid who wants to learn and wants to suceed, they will succeed ACADEMICALLY anywhere. If you have huge amounts of parent involvement then you have an educational Utopia anywhere you put that child.
We still need some type of assessment to compare apples to apples.
Demographic of homeschooling parents: WORLD Magazine | Community | Blog Archive | New homeschool stats from Dept. of Education (http://online.worldmag.com/2009/06/03/new-homeschool-stats-from-dept-of-education/ - broken link)
I'm not sure what SES stands for... my "all colors" comment was responding to the claim that homeschoolers are white and middle class. "All colors" means that the families are not white. I'm sorry if that offends you.
ETA: Never mind; I figured it out... socio economic status. Two kids quarreling in the same room that the computer is in can really fry my brain sometimes!
Last edited by TouchOfWhimsy; 07-01-2009 at 04:00 PM..
Okay, I've spent several hours today digging through the research. There's a lot of propaganda and anecdotal evidence from both sides of the aisle, but very little in the way of truly unbiased research. There are so many variables to manipulate that it makes it difficult to discern cause-effect relationships.
On the one hand, I found an early-90's study that put home schooled students' ACT scores on par with their publicly schooled peers, which appears to support Ivory's assertion that they aren't outperforming their public school counterparts as might be expected. On the other hand, a recent study from Lawrence M. Rudner of the ERIC Clearinghouse on Assessment and Evaluation found that by high school age, home school students were performing four years beyond their peers in public education.
Here are a couple of other highlights from my foray into the research. There is currently no evidence that charter schools improve academic performance compared to a traditional public schools. Conversely, recent studies show Catholic schools and Lutheran school students outperforming public school students. Conservative Christian school students underperform.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dez181
Demographic of homeschooling parents: WORLD Magazine | Community | Blog Archive | New homeschool stats from Dept. of Education (http://online.worldmag.com/2009/06/03/new-homeschool-stats-from-dept-of-education/ - broken link)
There is a bit of a surprise in this report regarding socioeconomic status of home school families. It turns out that home schoolers aren't quite as privileged as we might have at first believed, and although most home school students are still Caucasian, the rise of minority home school students is accelerating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dez181
If you have huge amounts of parent involvement then you have an educational Utopia anywhere you put that child.
My personal experience with a lackluster public elementary school would indicate otherwise. I believe educational environment makes a tremendous difference for a student. There isn't enough time left in the day for a parent to make up for deficiencies, which is why I am adamantly opposed to our current Education Secretary's plan to extend the school day, but I should stop here before I'm tempted jump on my soapbox.
Last edited by formercalifornian; 07-01-2009 at 05:06 PM..
When comparing demographics of homeschoolers and public schoolers, you have to remember that many, many homeschoolers are not counted. In some states, no notification is needed. In many other states, there are options to be recognized as a private school instead of a homeschool. And in every state, I'm sure homeschoolers exist who do not comply with the local laws for whatever reason.
I (along with probably the majority of homeschoolers in Connecticut) am not counted among homeschoolers, because there is not a required notification procedure. When I lived in Florida, I was not counted as a homeschooler, because I chose the less invasive "umbrella school" option. I sent my attendance records to a woman who ran an umbrella school in another area of the state, and that satisfied my "private school" requirements. In Maine, there is a similar program, and homeschoolers designating themselves as "non-approved private schoolers" are not classified as homeschoolers for demographic survey purposes.
Just wanted to throw that information into the mix.
Here in NC.. we have to send a Notice of Intent to operate home school and a copy of our high school diploma or its equivalent.. In return they send of a card showing were homeschooling, and every year we get this card to keep through out the year. We also have to keep a copy of the immunization records and annual attendance records. Required by law we have to give a nationally standardized achievement test each year and of course keep the test results here for one year and made available to DNPE if requested. And if we decide to close the school we have to notify DNPE. It's a pretty simple process.
I'm not sure what SES stands for... my "all colors" comment was responding to the claim that homeschoolers are white and middle class. "All colors" means that the families are not white. I'm sorry if that offends you.
ETA: Never mind; I figured it out... socio economic status. Two kids quarreling in the same room that the computer is in can really fry my brain sometimes!
Mostly, they are white middle class two parent households. Yes there are other "colors" but you will find few people living in poverty who are homeschooling. The entire bottom of the SES continuium is lobbed off. Those are the kids who, traditionally, perform the worst in school. Once you take out the demographics that, traditionally, do the worst, you should be left with kids who are performing FANTASTIC compared to public schools which teach pretty much the continuium of SES. I find the fact you don't see homeschooling delivering results that demographics alone would predict disturbing. To me, this means that the kids who do well in home schooling are doing well in spite of homeschooling not because of home schooling.
It also blows the argument that parents are the best people to pick a child's educational environment out of the water too. If they were, then we'd see fantastic results from homeschooling because every parent (even most would get you there) who chose to homeschool would be choosing the right environment for their child.
Given that homeschooling is not delivering the results one would expect given demographics, we have to conclude one of two things. Either, 1) homeschooling just doesn't work well or 2) parents do a lousy job of determining when homeschooling is right for a child. Either way, homeschooling is suspect. Personally, I lean towards the latter because most of the parents I know who homeschool do it for one of two reasons. 1) to control everything their child is exposed to or 2) to justify mom staying home. IMO, neigther is a valid reason to homeschool.
Fortunatley, with demograpics on their side, homeschooled kids will probably do ok in spite of whatever the issue is with homeschooling. Sorry, but when something like homeschooling can't even deliver what demographics alone would predict, I'm going to question it's value. We all should be. If a school having the demographics of homeschooling performed only better than average, we'd all be screaming that it needs to be fixed. Why aren't we screaming that homeschooling needs to be fixed?
IMO, we need to start by making sure parents are qualified to teach their children. Every parent who homeschools should have to pass the basic skills test that teacher candidates must take to get into an accredited teacher program (some schools allow you to take it at the end but here the ones I know of make you take it at the beginning of your program so they don't waste their/your time if you can't pass). This test is easy. It weeds out only the worst people. I would hope that most homeschooling parents could pass and those who can't shouldn't be teaching. If you can't pass a test this basic, you don't belong teaching anyone.
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Talk about twisting what I said. 
