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Again, what results are you expecting? 100% scores on standardized tests? 100% of homeschooled kids making 6 figures per year after the age of 25? (I actually don't see either of these things as necessarily desirable, nor as indications of "success," but I have no idea what you are looking for.) IMO, I DO see fantastic results from homeschooling. A small percentage don't have great results, and these kids often end up in public school.
Where are you coming up with the premise that public schools have better results with similar demographics than homeschools? And why do you keep insisting that only middle class white people homeschool? There are people of all colors in my homeschool group, and some of them are single parents. Many families have a special needs child. Many took their children out of school because their children were failing in school. What "better results" are you looking for? Are you basing this on standardized tests (a very faulty way of assessing children)? You do realize that most homeschoolers don't teach to the tests the way public schools do, right? Furthermore, what about private schools?
Well, I didn't say only white people homeschool. I said the typical demographic of homeschooled kids is middle class, two parent houshold with parents involved in their education and most are caucasian. I did not say all.
Logically, you can't very well homeschool if you don't have a parent at home to homeschool. It takes a minimum family income to achieve that. Most poor mothers are working to support their families. Also if you're poor, you're not likely to be able to afford the homeschooling materials you'll need. It's pretty much a given, if you're homeschooling you're above some minimal SES. SES is a strong predictor of outcomes. Coming from a two parent household is a predictor of outcomes and having involved parents is a predictor of outcomes. All positively associated.
Contrast this to public schools that have to take all kids. Poor ones, middle class ones, kids with drug addicted parents, kids with involved parents, kids with no parents. Kids so poor the only meal they get is the free lunch provided by the school. Kids dealing with home situations that are so bad the child can't hope to learn in school. Kids who enter school speaking little english. Public schools get everyone. Homeschooling gets kids whose families are affluent enough to be able to afford mom at home to homeschool. The stats are skewed, seriously, in favor of homeschooling so why don't we see results? What is wrong with this picture.
I'm in a strongly middle class area and 35% of the students in our local school qualify for free or reduced lunch (an indicator of how well kids will do on standardized tests). I don't know the stats but we have a lot of ESL students in my area. We're kind of divided with one high school having few ESL students one having about half and one having a majority of ESL students. Rankings for the high schools are 7, 5 and 4 out of 10 respectively. How many homeschooling situations invovle kids who don't speak the same language as their teachers?
The homeschooling demographic removes the kids who, traditionally, perform the worst. Hence, homechooling should be delivering great results. Why is it only better than average when average includes everyone not just those kids from two parent households who are middle class enough to afford mom to stay home?
There is a direct correlation between SES and academic performance. There is a direct correlation between SES and parental involvement. There is a positive correlation between having two parents in the household and educational outcomes. Most homeschoolers will have these three things no matter what color they are.
And I agree whole heartedly with the people who are saying that color alone doesn't represent diversity. When people group together, by choice, it's usually with people like them. Which is unfortunate.
Again, what results are you expecting? 100% scores on standardized tests? 100% of homeschooled kids making 6 figures per year after the age of 25? (I actually don't see either of these things as necessarily desirable, nor as indications of "success," but I have no idea what you are looking for.) IMO, I DO see fantastic results from homeschooling. A small percentage don't have great results, and these kids often end up in public school.
Really good results compared to public schools. Something that wouldn't be described only as "better than average" because it's too good to be just "better than average". Results so good that homeschoolers would be shouting them from the rooftops. Demographics alone would predict that homeschooled kids should be doing WAY better than averge. So much so that they should look stellar compared to the average student in a public school.
It's hard to put a number on it without separating out the same demographic in public schools to see how they're doing. However, my gut says I would expect to see something akin to the average of the upper half of the class since homeschoolers skim when it comes to demographics. The lower down you go, the less likely mom is even home to homeschool.
Give me the same demographic and I'd be willing to bet I could, at least, get them to average for the upper half of my other classes. I'll pass on the challenge though. I'd rather work with kids who need me not kids who are destined to do well no matter what. Not that I don't like them but they really don't give me much in the way of job satisfaction. It's the struggling child who says thank you at the end of the year I teach for. The one I can make a difference for.
You've repeated the phrase "demographics alone" quite a bit, but I have yet to see any research that backs how these kids should be performing based on their supposed advantages. I searched high and low yesterday for real studies, but I haven't found anything that backs your assertion. If you do have something scholarly to share, please do post it.
What I did find is a recent study showing that charter schools on average do not produce students who perform better than those in traditional public schools, yet you've chosen a charter school for your daughter in the absence of any evidence that it will give better results. While that may seem illogical to the casual observer, I suspect that's because on an individual basis, the charter school is providing something for your daughter that she would not get in public school. It's likely that home schoolers feel exactly the same way.
I think what Ivory is trying to say is that if you took a homeschooled kid (middle class student) and compared them to their peers in a public school setting, the homeschooled kids should be performing way better then thier public schooled peer (middle class student). So lets say that both hypothetical students take standardized tests (for a measurement, because we need to measure), the homeschooled kid (with one on one instruction, many more hours devoted to learning, and huge amounts of parental involvement) should blow the public school kid out of the water on the tests. Statistically, we need to find some here I agree, the homeschool child is only performing slightly better than average (which is where the public school kids is performing?). I hope that I read you right their Ivory. Which means, when we find the stats that you want, that homeschool is not the end all and be all that some claim it to be at this point..
Dez, would you mind substantiating this claim with your data? The studies on homeschooled kids' performance on standardized tests is pretty limited, but this study contains these interesting observations that address your concerns:
1. In 1997, a study of 5,402 homeschool students from 1,657 families was released. It was entitled, "Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America." The study demonstrated that homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects. A significant finding when analyzing the data for 8th graders was the evidence that homeschoolers who are homeschooled two or more years score substantially higher than students who have been homeschooled one year or less. The new homeschoolers were scoring on the average in the 59th percentile compared to students homeschooled the last two or more years who scored between 86th and 92nd percentile.
Now, one might argue that the HSLDA website is biased toward homeschooling, as of course it is -- but what this does not indicate is that the study itself, done by independent researchers, is biased. It's not the only study of homeschoolers' performance out there, and therefore I am eager to see your information so that I can compare it to my own. I also am not sure how you personally are defining the phrase "only slightly better than average." Obviously, an average of a group is the 50th percentile. Most people would consider being between the 86th and 92nd percentiles as far above average.
Your point about the socioeconomic status of homeschoolers vs. the general public school population is an excellent one and worth considering. If you are possessed of a more "apples to apples" comparison -- say, middle- to upper-middle class public schoolers to homeschoolers as a general population -- I again am eager to see the comparison and evaluate their conclusions.
Ivory, homeschoolers DO score FAR above average. I do'nt know where you are getting the idea that "above average" equals "barely above average." Didn't you say in another thread that half of hte kids in high school have sub par math and writing skills? Apparently public school is not doing its job, if that's indeed the case.
2. In a study released by the National Center for Home Education on November 10, 1994. According to these standardized test results provided by the Riverside Publishing Company of 16,311 homeschoolers from all 50 states K-12, the nationwide average for homeschool students is at the 77th percentile of the basic battery of the Iowa Test of Basic Skills. In reading, the homeschoolers' nationwide grand mean is the 79th percentile. This means, of course, that the homeschool students perform better in reading than 79 percent of the same population on whom the test is normed. In the area of language arts and math, the typical homeschooler scored in the 73rd percentile.
Quote:
6. In South Carolina, the National Center for Home Education did a survey of 65 homeschool students and found that the average scores on the Comprehensive Test of Basic Skills were 30 percentile points higher than national public school averages. In math, 92 percent of the homeschool students scored above grade level, and 93 percent of the homeschool students were at or above grade level in reading. These scores are "being achieved in a state where public school SAT scores are next-to-last in national rankings."
Charles, I was trying to explain what Ivory was saying in the above post, and I do agree with the gist of what Ivory is trying to say. Performing better than 30% of counter parts in public setting is a big woop as well, as that 30% is probably the lowest perfroming students.
Bean and Pumpkin: The question I have is why are the results being published by the publishing company that probably wrote the test, (and wants to encourage more homeschooled people to buy the test) being seen as the holy grail.........I digress.
In the first quote above, I see that the average for homeschool students is 77th percentile for the Iowa skill's test, and reading in the 79th percentile. . Okay great 79th percentile, big woop! I am desperately trying to find an apples to apples comparison of the demographic of kids that are homeschooled and their public school counterparts, because this would give a more accurate picture. To me, with the amount of time and resources available, performing better than 79% of the kids is not acceptable. Look at the demographic of kids that compares to the homeschool student, counting low SES, poverty, learning disabilities, etc. To me with the homeschooled kids, if homeschool is the end all and be all that some claim, homeschool kids should all be above the 93rd percentile and higher on everything......based on the resources available to the homeschooled child.
As far as the second quote, you can not comapre 65 students to the entire national average and expect that to be a fare statistic. It needs to be all of the homeschooled kids, just like all of the public school kids that are counted in the equation. When you count ALL of the homeschool kids, that will include the failures that make it back into the public school system. You need to make an accurate comparison, and maybe have an outside researcher take a look at it.
I am going to continue to look for an apples to apples comparison, and if there is not research for it out there, I think we shoudl encourage the power that be to produce that kind of research.
Ivory, homeschoolers DO score FAR above average. I do'nt know where you are getting the idea that "above average" equals "barely above average." Didn't you say in another thread that half of hte kids in high school have sub par math and writing skills? Apparently public school is not doing its job, if that's indeed the case.
Research I did about 5 years ago when I considered homeschooling.
Yes I did say half the kids in my classes have sub par math/writing skills which is one of the reasons I'd expect stellar results from homeschoolers. They're not dealing with the bottom of the class. I'd expect, at least, average for the top half of the class. In my classes, that's about 85%.
That's only my opinion based on my own research and looking at normal distributions. IMO, anything less is less than demographics alone would predict and results would have to be out of this world to convince me homeschooling actually accomplishes something.
Another fact you have to remember is that not all homeschooled children take standardized tests. Only those who choose to. So that's another reason test scores should be stellar. In public schools, we don't pick who takes the test. Everyone does.
Just the fact that those for whom homeschooling doesn't work quit should yeild great results. Homeschooling has the deck stacked in their favor so higher than average test scores proves nothing. What you need to do is compare apples to apples. Compare the same demographic, eliminate students who don't have involved parents, hand pick who takes the tests and eliminate any student for whom the system doesn't work. What would public school scores look like then? That's what homeschooling scores should look like. They should be FANTASTIC and if they were, it would prove nothing other than demographics is on their side.
This is the type of data that tells me homeschooling is performing a little above avereage.
These are not stellar results when you're dealing with a higher demographic.....parents quit if it doesn't work for their kids (so you only see the success stories in college entrance exams).....the kids have involved parents....
My best friend's high school showed greater improvements than this by simply having every junior take a prep course.
If homeschooling is going to claim they are accomplishing something, they need to do better than this. When you skim the top, you expect better than average scores. I have no idea why anyone would think this is proof homeschooling is better. Maybe homeschoolers use different math than the rest of us.
For a decade now, the composite score on the ACT college entrance exam for homeschooled students has been higher than the national average – and the 2006 statistics, the most recent available, show the trend continuing, according to a report.
The Home School Legal Defense Association said the 2006 scores for homeschooled students averaged 22.4, compared to the national average composite of 21.1.
A year earlier, the average for homeschoolers was 22.5, compared to the national average that includes public and private school students of 20.9. "Now homeschoolers have an unbroken record for the last 10 years – since 1996, when testing officials started tracking them – of scoring higher on the ACT than the national average," the world's premiere home-school advocacy group said. "
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