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Old 08-06-2009, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,395,889 times
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This is sparked by the article posted about the school suing the parent of the gifted children for driving costs up. What do you think gifted children need in the way of accomodations? I'm thinking garden variety gifted children not the uber gifted who are so different from the norm they really need pull out programs. So assume IQ's below 160 here.

Do you think they should have special classes? Do you think they whould have more assignments than other students in the classes they take? Do you think it's justifiable to spend extra on them when they are already at an advantage when other kids who are struggling could benefit from spending the money on them?


BTW, I have one, possibly two, gifted children so I have no ulterior motive to argue against spending money on gifted kids. Both of my kids have been in a separate track G&T program. Dd#2 for four years and dd#1 for three (we didn't think she was gifted when she entered their last school but they decided she fit best in the G&T program after year in the school.). This program is actually cheaper for the school than the regular classroom as they have only one para in the room for the G&T kids because they need less support so there hasn't been any extra money spent on my kids. The school they're going into is simply moving them up a class in certain subjects and setting them up for dual enrollment which frees up class space for them so, again, it's cheaper (the school will collect the state money for them, pay their tuition to a community college their senior year and pocket the difference.).
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Old 08-06-2009, 08:59 AM
 
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Well, if the parents that are suing the schools for the gifted program driving up costs they should check out the school budget to find that most schools spend the majority of their money on the special ed programs-especially if you figure out the cost per student for these programs. Would they deny the special ed kids these programs too?

99% of the kids in the "gifted" program are not "gifted". They are bright kids but not truly gifted. Most parents don't really know what the difference is between a really good student and a "gifted" student.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,395,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Well, if the parents that are suing the schools for the gifted program driving up costs they should check out the school budget to find that most schools spend the majority of their money on the special ed programs-especially if you figure out the cost per student for these programs. Would they deny the special ed kids these programs too?

99% of the kids in the "gifted" program are not "gifted". They are bright kids but not truly gifted. Most parents don't really know what the difference is between a really good student and a "gifted" student.
I agree but I think gifted programs actually serve the high average kids who sneak in better than they do the gifted kids. Gifted kids don't become more gifted because they are in a G&T program but higher average kids do perform more like gifted kids if they are in a G&T program. I remember reading about a school in the midwest that put some of their high average kids in the gifted classes to deal with classroom overcrowding only to find that they could not move those kids back to the regular classroom when the overcrowding situation was corrected because they were too far ahead of the regular classes.

We don't know if dd#1 is gifted or just a high average but putting her in the G&T program, definitely, helped her. Her last school filled every seat in the G&T rooms to cut costs. Less support was needed in those rooms because you had the best kids in those rooms. Dd#2 is gifted but the only advantage I see to her separate track program was that we didn't have to deal with behavior issues due to her being bored (nothing major just talking, not sitting still and using things for purposes other than intended like building things with crayons or taking things apart....)

Personally, I don't think you need special classes for truely gifted kids. They'll find a way to make things interesting. I had a few last year in my chemistry and physics classes and they just did higher quality work, more of it and chose deeper subjects when given research assignments. Now, they did have a knack for using equipment in unconventional ways... and I never knew what I'd get if I gave them an open ended lab.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,469 posts, read 7,168,608 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
This is sparked by the article posted about the school suing the parent of the gifted children for driving costs up. What do you think gifted children need in the way of accomodations? I'm thinking garden variety gifted children not the uber gifted who are so different from the norm they really need pull out programs. So assume IQ's below 160 here.

Do you think they should have special classes? Do you think they whould have more assignments than other students in the classes they take? Do you think it's justifiable to spend extra on them when they are already at an advantage when other kids who are struggling could benefit from spending the money on them?


BTW, I have one, possibly two, gifted children so I have no ulterior motive to argue against spending money on gifted kids. Both of my kids have been in a separate track G&T program. Dd#2 for four years and dd#1 for three (we didn't think she was gifted when she entered their last school but they decided she fit best in the G&T program after year in the school.). This program is actually cheaper for the school than the regular classroom as they have only one para in the room for the G&T kids because they need less support so there hasn't been any extra money spent on my kids. The school they're going into is simply moving them up a class in certain subjects and setting them up for dual enrollment which frees up class space for them so, again, it's cheaper (the school will collect the state money for them, pay their tuition to a community college their senior year and pocket the difference.).
I don't think it necessarily has to be about spending more money. The biggest thing which would greatly help the exceptional student would cost little-to-nothing: an academic track which isn't watered down to fill seats.

Follow by teaching students how to do more in-depth study on a subject, how to do actual research instead of turning loose incipient college students who cannot write even a five paragraph paper.

Require real projects that teach real concepts, instead of time-filling crosswords and handouts that merely pay lip service by providing "ooh, more homework 'cause you're smart!"

Keep requirements stringent rather than fudging here and there to allow the PTA president's kid or the Principal's niece to get in.

I don't think simply skipping a grade does much, in the long run, because what you end up with is very often a kid who's still just as bored after a year or two, but is now bored, shorter, and less socially mature.

I also think magnet programs are the way to go in high school-- not just IB, but science and technology, the arts, and humanities & writing/literature-based programs. Our area has some great magnets, but the problem is that they're magnets-within-a-school, rather than magnet schools. So you have kids who are in amazing robotics or photography labs, and then the following period they're in sophomore English with the kids who don't give a flying **** about anything more than how, what or with whom they'll score that evening.

And I'll cap my wish list (since I don't see most of this happening anyway, at least not in Florida) by saying what gifted kids need most are teachers who understand the differences between the average bright kid and the truly gifted. There's completely different wiring in play here, and too many teachers, probably moreso at the elementary school level, don't get it.

Tangentially, what do you mean by "pull out programs" for the profoundly gifted? In Floridian school language "pull out program" is what they call one-day-a-week enrichment. I can tell you from sad experience that, even at best, that's not going to be much more than a welcome change of scene from the other four days of mind-ripping ennui. Maybe you mean something else? Educational terms are apparently staggeringly mutable from district to district.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:24 AM
 
3,422 posts, read 10,868,733 times
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Greater mobility between levels in subjects, independent acceleration under the supervision of a gifted teacher, and more flexibility at the HS level (some HS say for example "only 11th graders take Chemistry" and won't let a talented 9th grader take it so he can take community college classes in junior year) are good choices.

Some schools do this. Others do not.

How about clustering/tracking? It used to be the norm, but lost favor. My kids' school does cluster for reading within the grade-level, generally the at-grade-level and above-grade-level together, and below-grade-level in a separate group, and now for 5th grade, the advanced readers/writers get to spend time with the 6th graders and learn more advanced writing and read the 6th grade reading assignments. Math is everyone at the same level, unfortunately.

The kids in my school in the gifted program get a pull-out time and do independent research projects under the supervision of the gifted ed teacher, which is something the regular classroom would not accommodate (in our school - not saying it couldn't be done but its not at our school).

It is my understanding that, in our district, the middle schoolers (7th and 8th) take a math placement test and one group does an accelerated/compacted curriculum.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,469 posts, read 7,168,608 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post

Personally, I don't think you need special classes for truely gifted kids. They'll find a way to make things interesting. I had a few last year in my chemistry and physics classes and they just did higher quality work, more of it and chose deeper subjects when given research assignments. Now, they did have a knack for using equipment in unconventional ways... and I never knew what I'd get if I gave them an open ended lab.
While I think this may, possibly, be the case in high school it absolutely is not in early grades. Combining ability tracks in K-5 was possibly the most ludicrous educational idea the spawned in the latter half of the twentieth century (and there were several).

The gifted kids in Miss Smith's fourth grade class may well find a way to make things "interesting" all right, but not necessarily in a way that anyone other than other gifted kids will appreciate.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,469 posts, read 7,168,608 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lisdol View Post
Greater mobility between levels in subjects, independent acceleration under the supervision of a gifted teacher, and more flexibility at the HS level (some HS say for example "only 11th graders take Chemistry" and won't let a talented 9th grader take it so he can take community college classes in junior year) are good choices.

Some schools do this. Others do not.

How about clustering/tracking? It used to be the norm, but lost favor. My kids' school does cluster for reading within the grade-level, generally the at-grade-level and above-grade-level together, and below-grade-level in a separate group, and now for 5th grade, the advanced readers/writers get to spend time with the 6th graders and learn more advanced writing and read the 6th grade reading assignments. Math is everyone at the same level, unfortunately.

The kids in my school in the gifted program get a pull-out time and do independent research projects under the supervision of the gifted ed teacher, which is something the regular classroom would not accommodate (in our school - not saying it couldn't be done but its not at our school).

It is my understanding that, in our district, the middle schoolers (7th and 8th) take a math placement test and one group does an accelerated/compacted curriculum.

Here's my question: the school is K-5. Little Carlos is doing 5th grade math in, say, third grade, and that's fine. But then what are they providing him with in fourth and fifth grade? My experience with my son is that he would have been provided with fifth grade math-- again-- and again-- because that was the top level available in that school.

Please tell me somewhere else has a better handle on this.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:38 AM
 
3,422 posts, read 10,868,733 times
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Yep that's the problem they run into and until this year, the gifted ed teacher would pull out and give the advanced math instruction. They got rid of her due to budget cuts.

My husband remembers taking a shuttle to the hs with other advanced 8th graders to take 9th grade math, but this was between two Catholic schools, not public.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,395,889 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisdol View Post
Greater mobility between levels in subjects, independent acceleration under the supervision of a gifted teacher, and more flexibility at the HS level (some HS say for example "only 11th graders take Chemistry" and won't let a talented 9th grader take it so he can take community college classes in junior year) are good choices.

Some schools do this. Others do not.

How about clustering/tracking? It used to be the norm, but lost favor. My kids' school does cluster for reading within the grade-level, generally the at-grade-level and above-grade-level together, and below-grade-level in a separate group, and now for 5th grade, the advanced readers/writers get to spend time with the 6th graders and learn more advanced writing and read the 6th grade reading assignments. Math is everyone at the same level, unfortunately.

The kids in my school in the gifted program get a pull-out time and do independent research projects under the supervision of the gifted ed teacher, which is something the regular classroom would not accommodate (in our school - not saying it couldn't be done but its not at our school).

It is my understanding that, in our district, the middle schoolers (7th and 8th) take a math placement test and one group does an accelerated/compacted curriculum.
Well, I had a "talented 9th grader" in my chemistry class last year. She may have done exceptional in 9th grade classes but she didn't in my 11th grade chemistry class. The problem with classes like chemistry is you're not necessarily ready for them just because you've finished science at your level. I think she would have done well as a talented 10th grader taking the class but she struggled as a 9th grade. All they did was pull down her GPA.

The problem with cluster tracking is you have special ed kids who have to be included in the classroom. Cluster tracking creates a bottom track that parents are opposed to. My girl's old school does this but you have kids in that lowest group who struggle with being in the lowest group. Fortunately, there's enough fluidity in who is in that group that it's not a stigma that stays for long.

None of the schools my kids have/will attend do a pull out for G&T. IMO, all that results in is the student missing whatever was taught in the classroom when they were pulled out. If they'd stayed in the local elementary school, there would have been a pull out available for dd#2 but I wouldn't have allowed it. I'd rather enrich after school than have her miss classtime.

The middle school handles G&T by moving kids up a grade for whatever subject they need a higher class in and offering in grade honors classes. Dd#2 will be in honors math and science this year. Assuming she proves herself, she'll be bussed to the high school for math and science next year and to a community college for math and science classes once she runs out of high school classes to take.

The high school also offers honors and AP classes for kids who are not doing dual enrollment.

Dual enrollment is a good option. It saves the high school money while freeing up a seat. This has become so popular that they have a high school extension program located on the community college campus. Dd#2 could get her diploma and associates degree at the same time, though I'm hoping she doesn't. I'd like to see her have a semi-normal high school experience. If I thought education was about pushing kids forward, I'd do something silly like homeschool and push her ahead. I'll settle for a few college credits. I do like her getting some. I just don't want to see her take her entire senior year at the community college.
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Suburbia
8,793 posts, read 15,231,892 times
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I have never understood why the GT kids are pulled out of my third grade class for an hour a week (btw, this past year the group numbered 9 out of my class of 24), when "inclusion" is the name of the game for every other group.
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