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Oh, for goodness sake, people. We've been through this issue ad infinitum already, and the argument is absolutely futile. I seriously doubt any home educator is going to pack their kids off to school based on ITs posts, nor is any public schooler going to yank their kids out because of an HSLDA study. Give it up already! At the very least, let's keep the discussion to the original thread, rather than infecting the rest of the forum with this ridiculousness.
I don't expect I'll change any homeschooler's minds but I'm not going to sit back and let someone claim that something has been proved that hasn't been. Correlation does not equal causation. Yes, they've correlated higher reading levels, for one, to homeschooling but did homeschooling cause that or did demographics? Would this same group of children have read on the same level regardless of where they were schooled?
Nothing has been proven here. And yes, I'll keep pointing that out because some people don't get that. After the recent discussion on just this type of "study" (It's just a correlation not a study that shows causal relationships.), the fact this was posted shows people don't get that you have to look at the whole picture.
The issue is that when data like this is touted to mean more than it does, it might convince people who don't have the things going for them that the original group in the data set did. So it's worth reminding people that until you compare apples to apples, all you have is a correlation that may or may not mean anything. As a parent, I have no doubt that I'm not as qualified to teach all subjects as the pool of teachers my kids have in school. If I took this data and ran with it, I'd do my kids a disservice. I'm simply not a subject matter expert across the board. There are some areas where I'd be offering my kids a much poorer teacher than they will have in school.
It would be interesting to compare the same demographic from public schools that homeschools. Unfortunately, they're not breaking the data out this way. It would be expected to reduce the difference. How much is anyone's guess. They need a controlled study if they really want to prove something here but all they have is raw data from two different groups.
This is like comparing schools where one more exclusive than another. Does that the more exclusive school has higher scores mean it's a better school or they have better students? You'll never know until you compare students with the same things going for them from both camps which is difficult to do.
I just signed my daugher up for what is considered one of the lesser schools in our district. It does not compare to the city's gem on the other side of town (no school of choice). However, demographics don't compare either. They offer the same classes, use the same texts and teach to the same objectives. My kids fit better with the demographic on the other side of town. Based on demographics alone, I'd expect them to do well in their school. Will they do as well as if they were on the other side of town? I don't know. There's no way to compare but I know they have demographics on their side. To quote the principal when we enrolled our kids "With parents like you, your kids can't help but suceed.". He has a very valid point there. The question, which no one can answer, is whether or not they'd do better in the school on the other side of town. Given that peers matter, they very well could but we really can't know.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-12-2009 at 01:46 AM..
So a homeschool organization hired a homeschooling advocate to conduct a study on home schooling achievement?
Find me something in a peer reviewed academic journal and we'll talk.
Whom should they have hired? A public school teacher? A doctor? Please. If the public schools were doing a study, they wouldn't hire a homeschool advocate, now would they?
Oh, for goodness sake, people. We've been through this issue ad infinitum already, and the argument is absolutely futile. I seriously doubt any home educator is going to pack their kids off to school based on ITs posts, nor is any public schooler going to yank their kids out because of an HSLDA study. Give it up already! At the very least, let's keep the discussion to the original thread, rather than infecting the rest of the forum with this ridiculousness.
I enjoyed posting this study.....it gets under ignorant people's skin. Facts are facts. Most of the anti-homeschooling people here spout off nonsense and opinions, not facts. I wasn't posting it to change anyone's mind. I posted it because this is an education forum and there are homeschooler's here. There are also assasine critics who claimed there were no studies or statistics out there and obviously, that's wrong. Peace.
Last edited by tamitrail; 08-12-2009 at 07:05 AM..
This is like comparing schools where one more exclusive than another. Does that the more exclusive school has higher scores mean it's a better school or they have better students? You'll never know until you compare students with the same things going for them from both camps which is difficult to do.
I just signed my daugher up for what is considered one of the lesser schools in our district. It does not compare to the city's gem on the other side of town (no school of choice). However, demographics don't compare either. They offer the same classes, use the same texts and teach to the same objectives. My kids fit better with the demographic on the other side of town. Based on demographics alone, I'd expect them to do well in their school. Will they do as well as if they were on the other side of town? I don't know. There's no way to compare but I know they have demographics on their side. To quote the principal when we enrolled our kids "With parents like you, your kids can't help but suceed.". He has a very valid point there. The question, which no one can answer, is whether or not they'd do better in the school on the other side of town. Given that peers matter, they very well could but we really can't know.
A good experiment would be to sign the kids up for the failing schools, and see how well they do! After all, demographics are on your kids' side, right? I'm going to guess that you're not willing to experiment on your children, though, to see if this is the case. And neither am I. Homeschooling works for my kids, and I'm not going to send them to what I consider a sub-par school to "see what happens." Homeschooling works for homeschoolers. Public schooling works for public schoolers (well, some of them). I still don't understand why you care about what homeschoolers do or don't do? How does it affect what your kids are doing in their schools?
Whom should they have hired? A public school teacher? A doctor? Please. If the public schools were doing a study, they wouldn't hire a homeschool advocate, now would they?
Let's not make everything public school versus homeschooling. The problem is that this study is the same sort of thing as if, say, Coca-Cola hires someone to do a study about the soda. It doesn't necessarily mean the results are flawed, but it's not exactly independent, either.
I think it does show that homeschooling works for some children, but beyond that I don't think it's all that useful.
What it does show, though, is that there seems to be a demand for more independent, non-biased scholarship into homeschooling. Presumably if there was something like that out there, or at least if it showed homeschooling in a good light, the homeschooling activists would be advertising it heavily, as it would be far more meaningful than anything HSLDA-sponsored.
And while I'm not anti-homeschooling, and the question wasn't directed to me, I'm going to answer the "why do you care" question and say that I care about all kids having access to a decent education, regardless of whether or not they're my kids. I think that can happen in a variety of environments, homeschooling included, but I do think it's society's responsibility to at least have some minimal safeguards to make sure those kids are not falling through the cracks. (and before anyone says anything, I KNOW that some public school kids are failing. At least we know this; if you don't recognize the problem it's awfully tough to go about finding a solution. Most of those failing kids wouldn't magically do any better in a homeschooling situation, as in many -- not all, but many -- lack of family support or other similar issues are part of the problem.)
I did an intial read of the materials, but need to look at this more closely. Initially, though, I wasn't able to easily find stats on the success rates of children with parents lacking a high school degree; given that that's come up as a point of controversy, I think it's worth looking at. I certainly don't think a degree in education is necessary to homeschool, and think it ideal if the parent has had some higher education, but what about parents who themselves never graduated?
The problem is that a lot of times kids in failing schools are the ones who are most likely to have parents who are unwilling or unable to teach their kids the basics. If they were able to do so then it's unlikely their kids would be failing. Not to say there aren't bad schools out there, but the problems are usually broader than just the school. The school and its teachers can only do so much to compensate for larger societal problems.
I will admit that I did look into a nearby charter school once, and discovered that not a single student had passed the math portion of a state test. It was a new school, and I'm sure the teachers are doing their best, but I don't think he would get the attention necessary to thrive if the teachers were (out of necessity) focusing their attention on all of his lower-performing peers. In that case I think my son would do better in a homeschooling situation. Take one of the kids who was failing, though, and (although situations do vary) I find it unlikely that he or she would do better in a home environment.
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