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Old 08-24-2009, 07:38 AM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
It works both ways, though. If public schools are not expected to claim responsibility for the failures related to children who come to school ill-equipped or (gasp!) disabled, neither can they claim responsibility for the successes of the children whose parents read to them, expose them to a variety of outside experiences, and who are exceptionally bright or academically talented to begin with. If we posit that the former are simply destined to fail, then we must also accept that the latter are simply destined to succeed.

Statistically, disregarding only the bottom of the bell curve is dishonest and bad practice.
Ahhhh, that that is precisely the point! Public schools ARE required to "take responsibility" for those low-end students! That is precisely what is brought up every time there is a discussion about public schools.

On the other hand, home-schooled children almost always come from upper-middle class white families, in good neighborhoods, where dad earns enough money to allow mom to stay home and "educate" their kids 24-hours per day.

It simply is not a fair comparison, and everybody who looks honestly at it is forced to admit it.
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Old 08-24-2009, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,469 posts, read 7,176,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks View Post
Ahhhh, that that is precisely the point! Public schools ARE required to "take responsibility" for those low-end students! That is precisely what is brought up every time there is a discussion about public schools.

On the other hand, home-schooled children almost always come from upper-middle class white families, in good neighborhoods, where dad earns enough money to allow mom to stay home and "educate" their kids 24-hours per day.

It simply is not a fair comparison, and everybody who looks honestly at it is forced to admit it.
So that bit about the school being impressive because four children got perfect SAT scores was simply a sidebar? I'm missing your point in bring it up, then.

As for comparing homeschool and public school...I don't think broad-brush comparisons of any two venues (people always seem to forget there are other options, such as magnet and charter and private schools, or virtual academies, or homebound tutoring via the public schools) are reasonable. Frankly, I'd also be suspicious of a comparison between (as an example) Chapel Hill-Carrboro (NC) schools and Hillaborough County (FL), despite the fact that both are public. There are too many variables-- not just the oft-claimed, but never-substantiated "demographics"-- and too many people willing to forget that correlation does not prove causation.

The overarching issue as I see it is whether a child is receiving the most appropriate education for him at that time and under the circumstances which exist. Claims that any setting is automatically better for everyone-- or even possibly for a specific child at all times-- is a one-size-fits-no-one mindset I prefer to avoid, frankly. Useful for wasting an hour while avoiding other employment, perhaps, but otherwise of pretty limited value.
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Old 08-24-2009, 08:58 AM
 
10,629 posts, read 26,657,108 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace View Post
I'm very glad they're doing so in your area and glad they're taking advantage of sites and museums, et cetera. In our area, history education through the elementary and middle school years is very spotty and self-centered, beginning (as I think I may have said on other posts) with My Neighborhood and My Community and focusing on U.S. holidays. It's not that those things are bad -- of course not -- but My Neighborhood and My Community are better handled, I think, by the family. Forgive me if I am repeating something I said already, but in the ten thousand years of human civilization (to say nothing of the two million-year history of the human species), My Neighborhood isn't very important.
While not every school district or community is taking advantage of historical sites, etc., it's not due to lack of resources available; historical museums and sites exist all over the country, in both big and small towns. (Quality of the sites and their interpretation varies, but overall as a field it's getting better every year. The boring, "dusty" tours of days gone past are fading) I've worked in several regions of the country, and in almost all cases have had robust student programs. In two locations (on opposite coasts) not known for good public schools we worked primarily with the extremes of some of the poorest local schools as well as with the ritziest private schools. Actually, the only place where I've worked where we (as in the museum) haven't been able to fully engage the local public schools was in a smaller town in Virginia; there we had lots of homeschoolers, a handful of public school kids who came outside of school, and not a single official school visit.

I disagree with you about the local community history being best handled by family, though, or at least being handled exclusively by family; schools may or may not be the best place for that, but local history museums and historic sites are some of the best places for that; the public history field is being increasingly professionalized, and although quality varies the people leading the school programs at the local museum very well have lots of education and training, and, more importantly, have spent a great deal of time into coming up with interactive student programs and tours that attempt to use local history as a way to help kids feel connected to the local community as well as to use it as jumping off point to talk about the broader picture. A good program usually involves local, state, regional, national, and, where relevant, world history. An involved, educated parent can handle that, too, (although won't have the extensive site-specific knowledge and familiarity of the local museum educator or curator), but leaving that to the parents means a lot of kids won't get any of that.
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Old 08-24-2009, 09:08 AM
 
1,122 posts, read 2,309,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Well, I will support the strong foundation statement, at least in our schools. Our kids have been studying history since kindergarten. It might not all be American History because you know there is a big world out there but our youngest are going into 9th grade and they have a very strong knowledge of American and World history already.

Some people just like to complain. The so called "fluff" in text books does not keep popping up over and over. There will be a 2"x2" blerb every once in a while in a text book pointing out a FUN fact. Big deal. Overstatements and generalizations really do no one any good. Fine, you have a big hang up with public education, your prerogative but perhaps if you lived somewhere that does have good schools and does do a good job teaching kids you might open your mind a bit.
Acutally, here is one example....Look all through the curriculum. NEVER once is there mention of history as a subject, as it is in most public schools. This is just third grade but I looked at all the grades k-4 and they were all the same. There is mention of social studies however. And most kids have more knowledge coming out of elementary school about their own state than they do about their entire country and world history combined. Apparently though, learning how to be a good citizen is more important than learning real history.

http://www.doe.state.la.us/lde/uploads/4254.pdf

History in elmentary school is a joke. If you ask about wars, kids will tell you about the war on Iraq and the war in Afghanistan. They may even be able to tell you WWI & WWI. They can not tell you about wars that are currently raging in Africa or how parents there are forced to kill one of their children to feed the rest of the family. They do not know about waring Celts, wars including famous leaders such as Napoleon or past wars in places from China to Brazil. They have knowldege of the medevial world and how this is part of their ancestorial background. If you ask kids how language has evolved into what we have today, they will not know.

At most they might be able to tell you there are pyramids in Egypt that were used to bury kings and queens, yet they will not be able to tell you how Egypt during that time period interacted with the rest of the world or among themselves for that matter.

It wasn't that long ago that I was channel flipping and caught the end of the National Geography bee. I was quite shocked that only the smarted of the smarted know the answers to those questions. Why are kids not learning all this in school naturally?

What is so very sad is that my 7 year old knows more about history than your average 6th grader.

I, btw, to not waste my time on timelines and making kids memorize when something happened at this point. It is important that they know what happened and can say..."At the same time in Europe..." for example that the exact date.

Here is another site.....Ramaz Middle School

Grade six.
Quote:
Sixth grade history is an introduction to American history and Civics. Students begin their course of study with an in-depth unit on U.S. Geography. They continue with units on: European Exploration of the Americas, Colonial America, The Revolutionary War, the Constitution, the Early Republic and Westward Expansion. Skill development is an integral part of the curriculum. Lessons and assignments focus not only on the study of history, but also on building vocabulary, analyzing documents, outlining, note-taking, identifying main ideas, researching, and writing. Students complete a mid-year comprehensive project, which culminates in an annual History Festival—a multi-faceted research project involving formal writing, creative writing, artistic design, and music. Sixth grade field trips include visits to historic sites in Manhattan and a day trip to Philadelphia.
Sure kids are learning SOME history in elementarty but what is shocking to me is that we have already covered this with our 5 and 7 year old kids. DD has done the second half already. Where is world history here? Is it just the "rising of civaliztion" that they put out there for th e5th grade? FIFTH GRADE! All second graders should know this information!

BUT WAIT! Maybe they will learn some of it in 7th grade.

Quote:
...delve into their national past and understand pivotal events, dominant philosophies, and key figures in American history. Units include The Civil War and Reconstruction, Industrialization and the Progressive Response, World War I, the Roaring Twenties, The Great Depression and the New Deal, World War II, The Cold War, and The 1960s. ...


COME ON! The high school years are needed for in depth analysis of histroy and they should be prepared with 7 years of "AND while this was happening in the America's, we also this going on in Asia, this going on in Africa, this going on in South America, and this going on in Europe.

The problem that kids have with timelines and figuring out dates is that we always seperate history as one tiny unit on a specific subject, usually related to American history, and do not expand on it. There are little informational bits but nothing substantial. It is like asking an anorexic if they had lunch and they answer yes but all they had was a sodium free cracker.

History in Elementary public schools is a joke. I know this from my extensive reasearch, looking for the most challenging public school curriculum in the US to base the curriculum I built for my kids. I've searched every single state's expectations. Sadly, I have to spend a great deal each year beefing up the curricula with more substantial information to keep my kids from growing up with such a sub par education.
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Old 08-24-2009, 09:11 AM
 
1,122 posts, read 2,309,200 times
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Ours too. Each classroom picks a country to study each year. At the end of the year, each class does a presentation on their country. They go into history as well as current events.
What is wrong with this picture! They might choose a time period and each class get a different country. They can study that time period in depth for that area. When they do the presentation, guess what? Everyone gets the idea about how things all worked in the world at the same time and together with each other.
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Old 08-24-2009, 09:12 AM
 
10,629 posts, read 26,657,108 times
Reputation: 6776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
It works both ways, though. If public schools are not expected to claim responsibility for the failures related to children who come to school ill-equipped or (gasp!) disabled, neither can they claim responsibility for the successes of the children whose parents read to them, expose them to a variety of outside experiences, and who are exceptionally bright or academically talented to begin with. If we posit that the former are simply destined to fail, then we must also accept that the latter are simply destined to succeed.

Statistically, disregarding only the bottom of the bell curve is dishonest and bad practice.
I can see your point, but at the same time I think there are some differences; the very few top kids may thrive anywhere, but parents want to know that if they place their own child, a kid that does have the advantages of caring, involved parents and exposure to things outside of school, that they will continue to be nurtured and supported during the school day. In other words, their kid won't be bored or ignored while teachers focus on the students with problems. Schools can't take full credit for a student who does well, but they can at least take some credit for not depriving them of educational opportunities or failing to meet their needs (or alternatively, for failing in those areas.)

I don't expect that a public school can by themselves overcome the problems of every student, or that they can make every single kid a National Merit Scholar. It's the kids in the middle that are of more interest; I want to know if the average child will have a good shot at success if attending the school.
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Old 08-24-2009, 09:29 AM
 
10,629 posts, read 26,657,108 times
Reputation: 6776
Quote:
Originally Posted by flik_becky View Post
Acutally, here is one example....Look all through the curriculum. NEVER once is there mention of history as a subject, as it is in most public schools. This is just third grade but I looked at all the grades k-4 and they were all the same. There is mention of social studies however. And most kids have more knowledge coming out of elementary school about their own state than they do about their entire country and world history combined. Apparently though, learning how to be a good citizen is more important than learning real history.

http://www.doe.state.la.us/lde/uploads/4254.pdf

History in elmentary school is a joke. If you ask about wars, kids will tell you about the war on Iraq and the war in Afghanistan. They may even be able to tell you WWI & WWI. They can not tell you about wars that are currently raging in Africa or how parents there are forced to kill one of their children to feed the rest of the family. They do not know about waring Celts, wars including famous leaders such as Napoleon or past wars in places from China to Brazil. They have knowldege of the medevial world and how this is part of their ancestorial background. If you ask kids how language has evolved into what we have today, they will not know.

At most they might be able to tell you there are pyramids in Egypt that were used to bury kings and queens, yet they will not be able to tell you how Egypt during that time period interacted with the rest of the world or among themselves for that matter.

It wasn't that long ago that I was channel flipping and caught the end of the National Geography bee. I was quite shocked that only the smarted of the smarted know the answers to those questions. Why are kids not learning all this in school naturally?

What is so very sad is that my 7 year old knows more about history than your average 6th grader.

I, btw, to not waste my time on timelines and making kids memorize when something happened at this point. It is important that they know what happened and can say..."At the same time in Europe..." for example that the exact date.

Here is another site.....Ramaz Middle School

Grade six.


Sure kids are learning SOME history in elementarty but what is shocking to me is that we have already covered this with our 5 and 7 year old kids. DD has done the second half already. Where is world history here? Is it just the "rising of civaliztion" that they put out there for th e5th grade? FIFTH GRADE! All second graders should know this information!

BUT WAIT! Maybe they will learn some of it in 7th grade.

[/font]

COME ON! The high school years are needed for in depth analysis of histroy and they should be prepared with 7 years of "AND while this was happening in the America's, we also this going on in Asia, this going on in Africa, this going on in South America, and this going on in Europe.

The problem that kids have with timelines and figuring out dates is that we always seperate history as one tiny unit on a specific subject, usually related to American history, and do not expand on it. There are little informational bits but nothing substantial. It is like asking an anorexic if they had lunch and they answer yes but all they had was a sodium free cracker.

History in Elementary public schools is a joke. I know this from my extensive reasearch, looking for the most challenging public school curriculum in the US to base the curriculum I built for my kids. I've searched every single state's expectations. Sadly, I have to spend a great deal each year beefing up the curricula with more substantial information to keep my kids from growing up with such a sub par education.
It's ridiculous to say "history in elementary public schools is a joke." It may be in some schools, but not all. Curriculum is only one part of the story. As far as saying "my kids already studied that," well, I'm a historian, and guess what? I studied early American history in elementary school, junior high, high school, college, and graduate school. You don't study something once and move on. You come back to it over and over, adding new nuances each time. A 7-year-old's understanding is not going to be anything like what a 12-year-old gets out of it, regardless of quality of education.

You're also not giving kids much credit. Sure, some don't know much, but spend some time with kids who have gone to public schools and you may find yourself impressed with the amount of knowledge many DO have. Have you ever been to a History Day event? The projects done by some of these kids are wonderful examples of in-depth primary source research, and certainly worthy of praise.

As far as not knowing about wars in Africa or other such modern issues, you're forgetting that all of this really does depend on local circumstances. Believe me, the kids in Minneapolis are well aware of recent African history. That's a bit of an aside, but not only are school experiences very diverse, but so are the kids themselves. Not everyone's background traces back to Europe.

Maybe the schools in your area are bad, maybe you live in an area where people don't pay much attention to history, but your own individual experiences don't translate into "all schools are terrible." I had a great public school experience (at some classic "inner city" schools, no less) but I realize it doesn't translate into "all public schools are wonderful." It does, however, show that there's a wide variety of experiences out there.
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Old 08-24-2009, 09:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
Here's my concern: I don't really care that much about ten minutes' time spent in administrative duties at the beginning of the day (though I'm not excited about my first-grader sitting through school-sponsored commercials either).
I don't really care about an hour in the afternoon once a week at "Fun Friday".
I don't really care about the half-hour waiting while all the kids in the classroom get through the School Store.
But let's throw in lunchtime, recess (oh, wait, forget that one since our county cut it from the schedule), DARE, Character Education, visits from the Health Department to screen for everything from vision and hearing to obesity...We've whittled down a six hour instructional day to half that. Throw in the push for Reading and Math (since they're tested on these at the end of the year) and you've reduced science, social studies and arts education right out of the schedule.
At the elementary level class time has been pared down to a ghost of its former self. And while I can adequately teach two kids in two-three hours a day (without free TVs, though I will admit to using M&Ms in a math class once), I'm not optimistic that Mrs. Johnson in the third grade class can adequately teach ten or twelve times that many. Particularly when you take into account she has a range from Johnny who doesn't really read yet to Alice who borrows books from her sister in high school.
Don't forget the holidays now Aconite. Ok, let us review what we do for holidays first...."We will not do any halloween activities until your school work is done." That one does not have any influence on their schooling. Thanksgiving...they get one day off. Christmas...they get the two weeks leading up to and through Christmas Day off. Easter falls on a Sunday. Valentine's Day, St Patty's Day, ect. there are no activities until the school work is done.

Yet at school they spend a great many days on these holidays. We have studied the history of holidays in our home school. That includes telling the kids where the Christmas tree came from and how Pagan and Christian holidays came together as a compromise and how the Christians did the same thing in other countries, Mexico is a great example. The real history behind Thanksgiving and how we came to the New World unprepared and how we later betrayed our "friends". And this goes on about all the holidays. But you won't see this happening in the elementary schools. How many kids can tell you where the history began with Easter eggs, or the history of Santa Clause...you know the thin, mean bigot in a green robe flying a sleigh of horses with an elf...er excuse me...a black boy slave to beat the kids who were bad (Don't they still celebrate this way in some country? see I've gone and forgotten some histroy), or how St. Nicholas was not really a saint but was declared one after his death, or where the stocking came from, ect.

I listened to a speaker this summer, an intelligent woman with a strong personality. She was a minister and an herbalist, an unusual combination. She's been to Africa on more than one occasion but she spoke of her first trip. She was not suppose to go but someone else couldn't go so she took their place. Each person on the trip had their own role, helping the sick, builing houses, digging wells, ect. She did not have a position other than teaching about Christianity. She hung her head in shame while there, ashamed of her religion and all the "missionaries" who went before her. These people were starving to death. They could not feed themselves. They were literally having to kill their own children to feed the family. And this was all those "Christians" faults.

But all of history says we've gone and done something great there...right? Not true. We went there and told them to stop foraging and gave them what they needed to clear their lands and cultivate their foods instead. After many years of drought, they could no longer feed themselves this way. Since we had stripped them of their knowledge of foraging, they did not know how to eat the plants that were growing around them.

Then, one morning, the leader of the mission walked up to her and said they needed her. She was brought out to a large group of women, all with children starving, and was told to teach them how to eat from the land. She cried as she said it was us who took that from them and forced this devastation on them.

The conclusion:

There is no better way to teach history than by someone who is this passion about it. If this passion and the emotions where placed into history, than kids would learn a great deal more. It's that same interest that inspires us to watch less historically accurate reenactments such as The Patriot, Arthur, ect. I remember the most bored I ever was with learning history and it was with a very monotone 7th grade teacher. The goal of the students was to get this guy to change his tone. Finally, when he was kicking a kid out of class, his anger forced his tone to change. The kid then pointed this out to him. He actually smiled. We didn't think it was possible. There are only two other things I remember from that class period.
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Old 08-24-2009, 09:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
Hey now! When you have a couple of preteens with casual regard for getting laundry into the actual hamper, you, too, will discover the wonderfulness that is Oxy Clean.
Though I can say with some satisfaction I own no electronic pest control devices, no blankets with armholes, and no Shamwows. Perfect Pancakes have never Puffed in my house.
You make me laugh! We had an issue with our boys throwing their clothes all over the floor when trying to find something to wear. We placed both their dressers in our daughter's room and all that we got was her chiming in. We disaplined and disaplined but it would not work. Guess who washes, dries, and folds their own laundry? I had never seen a two year old actually so as much as our youngest did but with some patience, we were even able to teach him how to fold his own clothes. They know how to vaccum, wash dishes, sweep ect but we don't make them do any of those unless they have "earned" the priviledge to. They do all their own picking up and organizing and work together to clean up their own bathroom though I do the scrubbing...unless they've done something really stupid. Thankfully we are past those stages now.

And now they have those blankets with arms holes or dogs! And I never thought highly of handy-dandy kitchen products that I could only make one small thing at a time. One pancake at a time! My kids would lose their minds...and so would I!
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Old 08-24-2009, 09:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Charles Wallace View Post
They didn't want a Snuggie??
I have been hoping one of my two boys would ask for one of these....and I would give them one.
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