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Old 10-05-2009, 07:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
If our kids were self motivated, teaching would be very different than it is today. I envision is as much more discovery based. They push investigative style learning but our kids don't seem to be able to do it. They're lost if someone doesn't tell them exactly what to do but they HATE others telling them what to do.

...

In the U.S. we celebrate the individual. In other countries, they celebrate the group. Here society (and schools) serve the individual. There the individual serves the group. We are, vehementely, opposed to anything that we deem infringes on individuality. It should come as no surprise that our children resist learning. They want to do their own thing not what someone else tells them. They have no respect for authority. They fail to realize there is a base of knowledge they must attain before they're ready to think on their own. They think they know best. After all, they've gone their entire lives being told how special they are.

.
I find this very interesting. Let's look at a typical four year old. All learning is (or should be) discovery-based, the kids are sponges, they ask "why?" over and over again, and love to learn about new things. When my son was four, he would tell anyone who would listen all there was to know about volcanoes. They think on their own, and have ingenious ways of gleaning information. I'm sure that all parents have been amazed at the conclusions that their very young children have come to on their own, without anyone spoon feeding them information.

Five year olds bounce into kindergarten with very similar approaches to life. They ask a million questions, many times not pertaining to whatever lesson they're learning. They yell out the right answers without raising their hands. They are enthralled with the paint-mixing lesson, and want to continue it past the allotted time, and then ask to do it again tomorrow. They are thrilled with learning all there is to know about whatever they're interested in.

Six year olds in first grade are a little more reserved, having been told over and over again in the past year, "sit down, we're not learning about that yet, we're doing this. We'll get to that later. It's not time for yada yada. Nope, we only do that on Tuesdays, today is Thursday. Raise your hand before you give the answer. We're not talking about that right now," etc.

Second graders and beyond are well trained. They sit and wait for direction. They raise their hands. They wait until they're told what they're learning. They sometimes ask questions not pertaining to the lesson, but are quickly reminded that "we're not talking about that today." They accept the answer, "you'll learn about that next year." They have become accustomed to and expect spoon-feeding.

Do you really wonder why kids are "lost" without being told what to do? From the time they enter school, they are told that they don't KNOW what to do, and they're not allowed to do what they want to do. They want to please their teachers, so they wait to be told what to do. They need to be told what to do to fit in, because we don't want anyone to be different, or to care about things that everyone else does not care about. (And by everyone else, I mean the teacher and the curriculum company.) Training in apathy, exactly what they'll need in the workplace, right?
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Old 10-05-2009, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,466,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanandpumpkin View Post
I find this very interesting. Let's look at a typical four year old. All learning is (or should be) discovery-based, the kids are sponges, they ask "why?" over and over again, and love to learn about new things. When my son was four, he would tell anyone who would listen all there was to know about volcanoes. They think on their own, and have ingenious ways of gleaning information. I'm sure that all parents have been amazed at the conclusions that their very young children have come to on their own, without anyone spoon feeding them information.

Five year olds bounce into kindergarten with very similar approaches to life. They ask a million questions, many times not pertaining to whatever lesson they're learning. They yell out the right answers without raising their hands. They are enthralled with the paint-mixing lesson, and want to continue it past the allotted time, and then ask to do it again tomorrow. They are thrilled with learning all there is to know about whatever they're interested in.

Six year olds in first grade are a little more reserved, having been told over and over again in the past year, "sit down, we're not learning about that yet, we're doing this. We'll get to that later. It's not time for yada yada. Nope, we only do that on Tuesdays, today is Thursday. Raise your hand before you give the answer. We're not talking about that right now," etc.

Second graders and beyond are well trained. They sit and wait for direction. They raise their hands. They wait until they're told what they're learning. They sometimes ask questions not pertaining to the lesson, but are quickly reminded that "we're not talking about that today." They accept the answer, "you'll learn about that next year." They have become accustomed to and expect spoon-feeding.

Do you really wonder why kids are "lost" without being told what to do? From the time they enter school, they are told that they don't KNOW what to do, and they're not allowed to do what they want to do. They want to please their teachers, so they wait to be told what to do. They need to be told what to do to fit in, because we don't want anyone to be different, or to care about things that everyone else does not care about. (And by everyone else, I mean the teacher and the curriculum company.) Training in apathy, exactly what they'll need in the workplace, right?
I don't agree. Other cultures also teach their kids to sit and raise their hand and yet they have a desire to learn and take responsibility for their own learning. Our kids resist being taught. They want to be entertained and I don't think that is taught in school. By high school, they think they have it all figured out and that teachers have nothing to offer them. In fact, I'd go as far as to say they think all elders have nothing to offer them. They're ready to show us how it's done only they don't know where to start. The issue isn't sitting in classrooms. It's in the attitude that they, by virtue of existing and being young, know more than everyone else.

If you want to see people who sit and follow the rules, spend some time with Japenese engineers. Yet they value learning. They cherish what their elders have to teach them. They work towards the day they are respected as an elder. I was appalled at my first experience with Japenese engineers. I considered them robots. Now that I'm older, I see that they valued the gift they were given and why they go farther than we do.

The problem is we tell our kids how special they are. We don't teach them to respect what others have done before them. We treat them like everything should entertain them. Like everything exists to serve them. We don't teach them that learning is power. We don't teach them that they were born to serve not be waited on. I think our culture loses something in not teaching our youth that they are expected to give back. In not teaching them to respect their elders and their experience. In not teaching them to value education for the gift it is.

I'm not complaining that kids don't ask questions. I'm complaining that they think they know it all and don't need to learn. They think what someone else has to teach them has no value. Yet, they have no clue how to teach themselves so they sit there stymied when you give them a task that challenges what they know. They don't want to be told what to do and they dont' have a clue what to do. The Japenese engineers I've worked with seemed to know that, compared to their elders, they needed to buy a clue. Because they realized they didn't know it all, they were willing to learn. Our kids don't want to learn what's offered to them, have no clue what it is they really want to learn and no clue how to start learning it if they did figure out what it was they wanted to learn. They see no value in learning. They see no value in anyone older than they are. They are the chosen ones.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 10-05-2009 at 07:35 PM..
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Old 10-05-2009, 07:33 PM
 
2,839 posts, read 9,968,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I don't agree. Other cultures also teach their kids to sit and raise their hand and yet they have a desire to learn. Our kids resist being taught. They want to be entertained and I don't think that is taught in school. By high school, they think they have it all figured out and that teachers have nothing to offer them. In fact, I'd go as far as to say they think all elders have nothing to offer them. They're ready to show us how it's done only they don't know where to start. The issue isn't sitting in classrooms. It's in the attitude that they, by virtue of existing and being young, know more than everyone else.

The problem is we tell our kids how special they are. We don't teach them to respect what others have done before them. We don't teach them that learning is power.

Maybe. My own kids, and the vast majority of the kids I know, are not like that. They love learning for the sake of learning, and are eager to learn from whomever can teach them what they want to know... librarians, teachers, little old ladies, grandmas, the man sitting at the desk of a museum. They also have never been in a classroom. I know that the plural of anecdote is not data, but for the most part, this is what I see from children who don't go to school.

I will concede that I don't know very many home educated teenagers, as compared to younger children. Time will tell if this will change as they grow older... but comparing to the kids who get off of the yellow bus each afternoon, my kids (and their friends) have a ton more get-up-and-go and excitement about learning for the sake of acquiring knowledge. It's not just me who sees it... librarians and historical society members and eye doctor employees have all mentioned it to me recently: "Wow, your kids ask a lot of questions and really want to learn!" Whether they're really thinking "Those kids need to be put in their place and just learn to sit down and be told what to do," I don't know... but it's certainly not waht I want for my kids, so I really don't care! LOL
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Old 10-05-2009, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,466,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanandpumpkin View Post
Maybe. My own kids, and the vast majority of the kids I know, are not like that. They love learning for the sake of learning, and are eager to learn from whomever can teach them what they want to know... librarians, teachers, little old ladies, grandmas, the man sitting at the desk of a museum. They also have never been in a classroom. I know that the plural of anecdote is not data, but for the most part, this is what I see from children who don't go to school.

I will concede that I don't know very many home educated teenagers, as compared to younger children. Time will tell if this will change as they grow older... but comparing to the kids who get off of the yellow bus each afternoon, my kids (and their friends) have a ton more get-up-and-go and excitement about learning for the sake of acquiring knowledge. It's not just me who sees it... librarians and historical society members and eye doctor employees have all mentioned it to me recently: "Wow, your kids ask a lot of questions and really want to learn!" Whether they're really thinking "Those kids need to be put in their place and just learn to sit down and be told what to do," I don't know... but it's certainly not waht I want for my kids, so I really don't care! LOL
Younger kids are sponges. I'd describe them as sponges up to about 6th grade. Then they get this sense that they have arrived and no one has anything to offer them. Not only do they not appreciate the gift that is offered, they spit on it. (Not all, but most)

Today I gave a lecture on new material. I told my class that the material is not in the book so they might want to take notes. They asked if I was collecting their notes to grade them. I said no. Half of them put their pencils down, folded their hands across their chests and pretty much checked out. There is no value of learning for learnings sake. If there isn't a reward for doing something, they don't do it. I grade a lot of papers I shouldn't have to grade because it's the only way to get half of them to do an assignment. They won't even do the fun ones.

Last year, I wanted to do a S'mores lab but I didn't want to buy 100 candy bars. I told the kids what the lab was (teaches limiting reagents and they get it when the do this lab) but that I'd need volunteers to bring in chocolate bars if we were going to do it. They asked "How much extra credit do we get". I told them none. I had a handfull of kids contribute and I neded up buying the rest of the candy bars. I won't do that again. It's a shame too because kids seem to get limiting reagents when they do this lab.

My own kids don't resist learning. They've been taught from an early age that there is value in learning and those who went before them have something to offer that they do not have. They've also been taught that they are responsible for their own learning. It is not the teacher's fault if they don't understand (not that they haven't tried that excuse, I just don't buy it.). It is their fault for not asking questions. I've never let them think for one second the system should bend to them (though they point out that other parents do). It is the other way around. It is they who should bend to learn. One issue I see with our society is we treat the child like the education offered has to bend to them. We don't teach them they have to work for their own education. We cater to our kids. We demand our schools cater to our kids. Parents cater to the point they expect the schools to accomodate their kids and if they don't, they'll pull their kids out and tailor their education to them themselves. If parents reject those who teach, why wouldn't their kids?

You have this wrong. Learning to sit in class and raise your hand when you have a question is not the problem. The problem is treating kids like they are so special everything should bend to them. We cater to our kids and then wonder why they expect to be catered to and think they're too good to actually have anything expected of them. We need to teach them to serve not be served.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 10-05-2009 at 08:20 PM..
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:47 PM
 
2,839 posts, read 9,968,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Younger kids are sponges. I'd describe them as sponges up to about 6th grade. Then they get this sense that they have arrived and no one has anything to offer them. Not only do they not appreciate the gift that is offered, they spit on it. (Not all, but most)

Today I gave a lecture on new material. I told my class that the material is not in the book so they might want to take notes. They asked if I was collecting their notes to grade them. I said no. Half of them put their pencils down, folded their hands across their chests and pretty much checked out. There is no value of learning for learnings sake. If there isn't a reward for doing something, they don't do it. I grade a lot of papers I shouldn't have to grade because it's the only way to get half of them to do an assignment. They won't even do the fun ones.

Last year, I wanted to do a S'mores lab but I didn't want to buy 100 candy bars. I told the kids what the lab was (teaches limiting reagents and they get it when the do this lab) but that I'd need volunteers to bring in chocolate bars if we were going to do it. They asked "How much extra credit do we get". I told them none. I had a handfull of kids contribute and I neded up buying the rest of the candy bars. I won't do that again. It's a shame too because kids seem to get limiting reagents when they do this lab.

My own kids don't resist learning. They've been taught from an early age that there is value in learning and those who went before them have something to offer that they do not have. They've also been taught that they are responsible for their own learning. It is not the teacher's fault if they don't understand (not that they haven't tried that excuse, I just don't buy it.). It is their fault for not asking questions. I've never let them think for one second the system should bend to them (though they point out that other parents do). It is the other way around. It is they who should bend to learn. One issue I see with our society is we treat the child like the education offered has to bend to them. We don't teach them they have to work for their own education. We cater to our kids. We demand our schools cater to our kids. Parents cater to the point they expect the schools to accomodate their kids and if they don't, they'll pull their kids out and tailor their education to them themselves. If parents reject those who teach, why wouldn't their kids?

You have this wrong. Learning to sit in class and raise your hand when you have a question is not the problem. The problem is treating kids like they are so special everything should bend to them. We cater to our kids and then wonder why they expect to be catered to and think they're too good to actually have anything expected of them. We need to teach them to serve not be served.
You are right on the first bolded... I do'nt feel that kids in general think they should have to work for their own understanding. They feel that it should be spoon fed to them. Absolutely. And the last part as well, I also agree with. Kids should not be sitting and waiting for pre-digested chunks of information to be drilled into them so that they can spit it back out. They should be out applying their knowledge in hands-on and helpful ways.

As to the second bolded, I would like to assure you that choosing to educate one's children at home is not "rejecting those who teach," any more than cooking your own food is "rejecting those who own restaurants", or changing your own oil (or in my case, asking hubby to do it!) is "rejecting those who work at Jiffy Lube." It's just another way of doing things. My kids certainly don't reject teachers... we appreciate them and depend on them for so many of our classes! We have Bible study teachers and Sunday School teachers, and karate and dance teachers, and librarians, and the wonderful people at the historical society, and the museum employees who hold classes for children, and countless others. In the future, I look forward to the teachers that they will have for higher science and math classes at the local community college or private high school. (In my state, homeschoolers can't use the public schools on an a la carte basis like in many other states... it's all or nothing, which is why I did not include public school in my list of places that they may end up taking some of their classes.) You are right, though, in that I actively individualize my children's education. I feel that it's the best way to learn and to be taught. You can call it "catering" if you want to... we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:24 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,789 posts, read 44,594,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
If our kids were self motivated, teaching would be very different than it is today. I envision it as much more discovery based. They push investigative style learning but our kids don't seem to be able to do it.
There's a reason for that. Discovery-based, investigative learning, etc., are ineffective because those methods contradict what is known about human cognitive architecture and the learning differences between novices and experts:
An Analysis of the Failure of Constructivist, Discovery, Problem-Based, Experiential, and Inquiry-Based Teaching
http://www.cogtech.usc.edu/publications/kirschner_Sweller_Clark.pdf

Quote:
One thing that impressed me about Japenese engineers is how they treat their elders. They, figuratively, sit at their feet and learn. They understand that there is value in what those who have gone before them have learned. They value what they have to pass on to them.
You've just described the sage-on-the-stage educational approach. That's currently out of favor amongst educators - the guide-on-the-side is the current educational fad. Guide-on-the-side is the popular method now, but it doesn't work - read the article linked above to understand why.
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:31 PM
 
144 posts, read 596,231 times
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Year round schooling is what this country needs. Anyone who has not experienced year-round schooling and is bashing it is just not informed. I went to a year round school for 1 year as a military dependent, I did not miss the extra long summer, I liked having more time during winter and spring breaks. What I realized as I went through high school was that that one year put me ahead of most of my peers when my family moved and I went back to traditional schools. I was already in advanced placement classes so there was no were else to put me, but I soon fell right back on par with the other students since my year-round education was not taken into consideration and I was placed with my "grade". Maybe one day people will see that the way to advance is through education, and that kids are not sitting around debating 1-3 month vacation versus 3-1 month vacations.
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Bend, OR
3,296 posts, read 9,671,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Younger kids are sponges. I'd describe them as sponges up to about 6th grade. Then they get this sense that they have arrived and no one has anything to offer them. Not only do they not appreciate the gift that is offered, they spit on it. (Not all, but most)

Today I gave a lecture on new material. I told my class that the material is not in the book so they might want to take notes. They asked if I was collecting their notes to grade them. I said no. Half of them put their pencils down, folded their hands across their chests and pretty much checked out. There is no value of learning for learnings sake. If there isn't a reward for doing something, they don't do it. I grade a lot of papers I shouldn't have to grade because it's the only way to get half of them to do an assignment. They won't even do the fun ones.

Last year, I wanted to do a S'mores lab but I didn't want to buy 100 candy bars. I told the kids what the lab was (teaches limiting reagents and they get it when the do this lab) but that I'd need volunteers to bring in chocolate bars if we were going to do it. They asked "How much extra credit do we get". I told them none. I had a handfull of kids contribute and I neded up buying the rest of the candy bars. I won't do that again. It's a shame too because kids seem to get limiting reagents when they do this lab.

My own kids don't resist learning. They've been taught from an early age that there is value in learning and those who went before them have something to offer that they do not have. They've also been taught that they are responsible for their own learning. It is not the teacher's fault if they don't understand (not that they haven't tried that excuse, I just don't buy it.). It is their fault for not asking questions. I've never let them think for one second the system should bend to them (though they point out that other parents do). It is the other way around. It is they who should bend to learn. One issue I see with our society is we treat the child like the education offered has to bend to them. We don't teach them they have to work for their own education. We cater to our kids. We demand our schools cater to our kids. Parents cater to the point they expect the schools to accomodate their kids and if they don't, they'll pull their kids out and tailor their education to them themselves. If parents reject those who teach, why wouldn't their kids?

You have this wrong. Learning to sit in class and raise your hand when you have a question is not the problem. The problem is treating kids like they are so special everything should bend to them. We cater to our kids and then wonder why they expect to be catered to and think they're too good to actually have anything expected of them. We need to teach them to serve not be served.
Ivory, I definitely agree with you on many of your points above. When I was teaching fourth grade, I can't tell you how many times I offered recess and after school help for my students who were struggling. I had kids in tears wanting to know why they continued to fail a test. Yet, even though I offered help, I only had two students who would come in on a somewhat regular basis. However, I do think that at this age, the parents need to show some initiative and get involved. We can't depend on 8 and 9 year olds to give up their "free" time if their is a choice.

I tried to set up after school help (unpaid time) twice a week to offer free tutoring, but couldn't get kids to come in on a consistent basis. The parents were pitiful, not really even taking an interest in helping their child to improve their scores. I had parents telling me they had to go shopping so their kid couldn't stay after school for extra help. Yet, when conferences came around and they got their report cards, they wanted to know what I was doing to help their child! So, I do think our children need to show an interest in their education, but I also think that they won't unless they see their parents showing an interest. In my experience teaching third and fourth grades, those kids (at least at the school in taught at) are not necessarily sponges. They learned behaviors from their parents, and already taken on many of their parents belief. When the parents don't value education, the children will not.
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Old 10-06-2009, 04:23 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,466,787 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by beanandpumpkin View Post
You are right on the first bolded... I do'nt feel that kids in general think they should have to work for their own understanding. They feel that it should be spoon fed to them. Absolutely. And the last part as well, I also agree with. Kids should not be sitting and waiting for pre-digested chunks of information to be drilled into them so that they can spit it back out. They should be out applying their knowledge in hands-on and helpful ways.

As to the second bolded, I would like to assure you that choosing to educate one's children at home is not "rejecting those who teach," any more than cooking your own food is "rejecting those who own restaurants", or changing your own oil (or in my case, asking hubby to do it!) is "rejecting those who work at Jiffy Lube." It's just another way of doing things. My kids certainly don't reject teachers... we appreciate them and depend on them for so many of our classes! We have Bible study teachers and Sunday School teachers, and karate and dance teachers, and librarians, and the wonderful people at the historical society, and the museum employees who hold classes for children, and countless others. In the future, I look forward to the teachers that they will have for higher science and math classes at the local community college or private high school. (In my state, homeschoolers can't use the public schools on an a la carte basis like in many other states... it's all or nothing, which is why I did not include public school in my list of places that they may end up taking some of their classes.) You are right, though, in that I actively individualize my children's education. I feel that it's the best way to learn and to be taught. You can call it "catering" if you want to... we'll just have to agree to disagree.
You have rejected those who are experts at teaching. You have declared yourself more qualified than those with teaching credentials (unless you have your own and they fit what you're teaching). The example homeschoolers without teaching credentials set for their children is that they, without the credentials, are more qualified than the experts. They reject those who know more than them without cause.

I can see parents supplementing education at home but I don't get throwing the baby out with the bathwater. All you teach your kids is that you (and they by example) must know more than everyone else. I'm not sure how you explain to them that you're more qualified that the teachers out there. From what I've read, few homeschoolers have a degree in education (seems to me you do?? or do I have you mixed up with someone else?). Yet, somehow, they just KNOW that they know more than everyone else and can do a better job. And you think their kids won't grow up to think that they just know more than someone with more experience and education than them???? And that it's ok to reject that experience and education because they are so much smarter????

You're dreaming. Homeschooling is the extreme of what I'm complaining about. You're declaring your kids so special, they need a special form of education. You're promoting the idea that someone, with nothing to base it on, just knows they know more and can do a better job and that it's ok to go on that gut feeling. After all what you feel in your gut is far more important than other's experience. That's the problem with our kids. They think they're done with education. That someone older than them, more educated than them and more experienced than them has nothing to offer. Pulling them out of schools with experienced teachers tells them experience isn't valuable. Teaching without the education to teach teaches them that no value is found in having the proper education to do a job. Yes, I expect that they will not respect experience or education. Until they're older and have both then they will be miffed that no one else respect them for theirs.
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Old 10-06-2009, 06:11 AM
 
5,047 posts, read 5,778,062 times
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Why do parochial and charter schools succeed. Because they are committed to education. i know I will be blasted for this, but in these schools, there is a certain expectation, a certain respect and a certain behaviour that is expected from the children.
Most teachers in public school are jaded from the bs. When schools are overcroweded, there cannot be any discipline, respect and there are too many people pulling in all directions. 600 kids in a 4th grade year is just too many.
Uniforms are also a great idea. That way the kids come to school dressed for learning.
The kids in public schools have way to much freedom and know their rights way to early.

d
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