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I agree. This is part of the problem. So what would be better? Is secondary education unnecessary? Where should 13-18 year olds be spending their time, if not in school? If they should be in school, what should school be? Homeschool is an answer for some families, but what about the rest?
Most kids are able to deal with school without quitting. Would they be better off if they did quit? Unlike a generation ago, kids who quit aren't likely to be participate in healthy activities, like work. They are sleeping half the day, playing video games, hanging out in the park, using drugs, becoming parents, and learning the welfare system.
So what has to change? The schools and the way modern education wastes so much of the child's school years.
Kids need to be taught the basics from the beginning. Period. Everything else should be shelved and left out of their day. I personally don't care what anyone else says, I believe the old way of education worked far better than anything in the past 25 or 30 years. We didn't have dropouts from our school.
Trades were taught as well as academics. That left those who weren't college bound with knowledge to get a decent job and earn a living.
I can speak from my own experience as someone who dropped out in the late 70's. I had done fine in school until I got to HS and then I just started to sink further and further behind. I couldn't stay organized to save my life, I couldn't pay attention in class no matter how hard I tried, and I didn't really have a circle of friends and those I did have, also dropped out. I had this idea that if they'd let me read and learn on my own, that I could educate myself, but of course that wasn't an option. 30 years later I was dxed with inattentive ADD, and I think several other people I knew who dropped out also had it--we know how to find each other, lol. I got my GED and started college with my class but the first few years were also a struggle for me and it took 12 years to get the degree, but by golly I did and from Washington University at that.
Nowadays, kids are more likely to get help for these issues, so I don't really know, but when the struggle to stay in school is too difficult, most people won't hang in there. What worries me more though are the kids in school who've dropped out--yes you read that right--they are physically there but mentally checked out. Their very compliancy with the letter of the law bothers me more than the kids who've decided they have better things to do with their time.
And you want to know another thing? I'm not really all that sorry that I dropped out of high school. I'd be sorry though if I hadn't gone back to school at the university, and when I work with the LD kids, I actively discourage them from doing so, b/c I know the GED will be really hard for them since it's 4/5 reading and 1/5 algebra.
I don't know about nowadays but back in 1988 I was bored with senior year. I think high school should be about preparing students for the world. Teaching the same subjects over and over-history, social studies, government, then AGAIN in college!? Come on! HS should be 3 years of the regular rigamaroll and the fourth should be all trades teaching-such as welding, carpentry, cooking school, business, auto mechanics, etc. I dropped out my senior year and just went to a community college where they had "open enrollment" which meant I took a test and I was in. I NEVER got my HS diploma or GED. All my life I have been an A student. I went on to graduate from the University of Texas and was headed for Med school all without a HS diploma. I chose accounting instead.
I think many kids have learning disabilities and they just get behind from the early grades and can never catch up. That leads to frustration, failure, and dropping out. Also, they have no role models in the home or community, so dropping out becomes the norm.
Tracking and vocational ed (a la Europe) would help a lot here. Instead, here in FL, our lawmakers keep pushing for higher standards and more advanced coursework for every single student in order to receive their degree.
So many kids just don't see the point. They want to put forth little effort and just skate by. Teachers can't light a fire for learning all by themselves. It takes the student, the parents, the community, and the teacher. I also worry that many of the "old school" teachers had no business being in the field to begin with. Teaching is not all about "marking up" papers. It's about lighting that fire, positive praise (grossly lacking in the lives of so many kids), and fostering an environment of trust, respect, and high standards. Too many of us are just going through the motions - teachers, students, administration.
Don't even get me started on the topic of respect, personal responsibility, and discipline. Some kids probably drop out just to escape the chaos that infects so many classrooms today.
We test them to death, add more curriculum and take away electives and drop the PE requirement in H.S. from 4 years to 2 years; make them pay fees to play sports and join clubs; and on top of that implement block schedule where kids go to each class for 2 hours a period---Tues/Thurs odd periods---Wed/Fri even periods...can you find any 15-18 year old that can sit through that mess?
Most reasonable thing I've heard in a long time. Too many damn tests. I never had a problem with the graduation exam, but come on. You're saying that after 12 years of long hard work, a student can not graduate because they didn't past a ****ing exam even if they did their best? I don't think that's fair.
That then all of the electives are getting cut left and right. My old HS had cut out a ton of electives by the time I got into my senior year. I had little option left but to take a science course that was generally for students on the standard diploma but was considered an elective for me due to my higher grades.
Then to join clubs and what not, you have to pay so many fees and have such high academic scores.
And to slap you in the face even more, football is generally given higher preference than many other things in school.
And to slap you in the face even more, football is generally given higher preference than many other things in school.
That irritates the crap out of me too, but had nothing to do with my decision to drop out. None of that did.
Teachers not teaching to learning styles had more to do with it. I remember that I wanted badly to take French, and when I got there, the teacher had a strong belief that to learn French, you had to listen to it and not read it. Trouble is I never processed auditorily very well and would have been much better served with a book in front of me--I never could stay awake in that class and rather than go in and get hit with a ruler one more time I just stopped going. I knew that if I complained that they would side with the teacher so I didn't say anything. Then another time I stayed up all night to finish a long assignment, only to lose it before I could turn it in, so I gave up on that class too and then it just went to he!! after that.
So what has to change? The schools and the way modern education wastes so much of the child's school years.
Kids need to be taught the basics from the beginning. Period. Everything else should be shelved and left out of their day. I personally don't care what anyone else says, I believe the old way of education worked far better than anything in the past 25 or 30 years. We didn't have dropouts from our school.
Trades were taught as well as academics. That left those who weren't college bound with knowledge to get a decent job and earn a living.
Most people agree that the basics include reading, writing, and arithmetic.
But when you say we should shelve "everything else," I'd like to know what you consider extra. This is the part people don't agree on. In fact, some say that kids drop out because the schools got rid of some of these things.
Extras that we should get rid of?
-holiday programs and practices!
-school spirit assemblies!
-P.E.?
-art? crafts?
-music?
-history?
-science?
-health?
-foreign language?
-government?
-consumer education?
-recess?
Most people agree that the basics include reading, writing, and arithmetic.
But when you say we should shelve "everything else," I'd like to know what you consider extra. This is the part people don't agree on. In fact, some say that kids drop out because the schools got rid of some of these things.
Extras that we should get rid of?
-holiday programs and practices!
-school spirit assemblies!
-P.E.?
-art? crafts?
-music?
-history?
-science?
-health?
-foreign language?
-government?
-consumer education?
-recess?
It isn't made absolutely certain that kids learn how to read and write, for example. If they don't learn, their material is dummed down for them instead of teaching them to reach for excellence. They are pushed along with the crowd and eventually, in high school, they end up in remedial classes, labelled and dragged to graduation at a 5th or 6th grade level, sometimes lower. If they don't drop out, they "graduate" with a piece of paper that says they didn't (drop out). It isn't really a diploma of accomplishment since it's essentially useless for anything like getting into a decent job, trade school or college.
It is absolutely essential for a person to know how to read and write to be successful. That's a given, yet schools don't make absolutely certain kids can read and write. They are pushed through whether they can or not. Without reading and writing, everything else is nothing.
Math comes next. Kids can't even count money and make change anymore. Kids should be solid as a rock in adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing. Those are crucial to their success as adults. No other math matters if they can't add, subtract, multiply and divide, yet a huge number of high school kids can't. They can't figure the simplest calculations in their heads.
What good is everything else if those three things are not mastered at a young age? No..good..at..all.. .
It is absolutely essential for a person to know how to read and write to be successful. That's a given, yet schools don't make absolutely certain kids can read and write. They are pushed through whether they can or not. Without reading and writing, everything else is nothing.
Math comes next. Kids can't even count money and make change anymore. Kids should be solid as a rock in adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing. Those are crucial to their success as adults. No other math matters if they can't add, subtract, multiply and divide, yet a huge number of high school kids can't. They can't figure the simplest calculations in their heads.
What good is everything else if those three things are not mastered at a young age? No..good..at..all.. .
I agree with you on this, but once again it has nothing to do with why I dropped out. I had mastered these skills years before, in the days before they started teaching these "fuzzy" math courses and before computer games and 150 channels on TV took over the kids' will to read. I don't think the fault completely lies with the schools--society doesn't value education, so the kids don't either. They learn what we teach them by our own example, not what we actually tell them.
My father was a professor and my mother a nurse, but they never took any interest in our education--they never checked to see if we had our homework done or helped us organize our notebooks when we were clearly struggling--that may have contributed to the problem. What it really boiled down to though is I just didn't have the energy or the emotional will at that time to bail myself out, and I see that a lot in our kids at school.
Another thing I want to say about your basics though--what do you do with the kids who have mastered them? Do you just keep teaching and reteaching the same material over and over to make sure they've mastered them and you've bored them into a hole, or do you make other educational options available? Some schools may have a 37% drop out rate, but that means that more than half did graduate, and a significant number mastered at least the basics you mentioned. Well except for counting change--a lost art and one that I taught my girls.
.. I couldn't stay organized to save my life, I couldn't pay attention in class no matter how hard I tried, and I didn't really have a circle of friends and those I did have, also dropped out. I had this idea that if they'd let me read and learn on my own, that I could educate myself, but of course that wasn't an option. ..
Nowadays, kids are more likely to get help for these issues, so I don't really know, but when the struggle to stay in school is too difficult, most people won't hang in there. What worries me more though are the kids in school who've dropped out--yes you read that right--they are physically there but mentally checked out. Their very compliancy with the letter of the law bothers me more than the kids who've decided they have better things to do with their time.
And you want to know another thing? I'm not really all that sorry that I dropped out of high school. I'd be sorry though if I hadn't gone back to school at the university, and when I work with the LD kids, I actively discourage them from doing so, b/c I know the GED will be really hard for them since it's 4/5 reading and 1/5 algebra.
Funny you would say the bolded above. I have a daughter who is brilliant. Seriously. She has struggled in school all along, but give her a computer and some books and the topics she has educated herself in is astounding. She is so well rounded she can have a conversation with any person on earth and hold her own. She can't remember a darn thing she had in school, but can recall almost every detail she has learned on her own. She free lances in photography and has a goal of being on staff at National Geographic one day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepka
Teachers not teaching to learning styles had more to do with it. I remember that I wanted badly to take French, and when I got there, the teacher had a strong belief that to learn French, you had to listen to it and not read it. Trouble is I never processed auditorily very well and would have been much better served with a book in front of me--I never could stay awake in that class and rather than go in and get hit with a ruler one more time I just stopped going. I knew that if I complained that they would side with the teacher so I didn't say anything. Then another time I stayed up all night to finish a long assignment, only to lose it before I could turn it in, so I gave up on that class too and then it just went to he!! after that.
Say the teachers cut the fluff out of the day and focused on the basics in the lower grades and taught in an array of styles, then broadened as the students progressed into the upper grades. That would lay the foundation of academic success for nearly every child in the classroom.
Focusing on a goal instead of method, kids could succeed in a number of ways. Some with reports, some with physical demonstration, some orally, etc.. Even in math, if a child understands the concept, he or she can learn to manipulate their own thinking to come up with the answer if the teacher isn't so bent on method.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepka
.. I don't think the fault completely lies with the schools--society doesn't value education, so the kids don't either. They learn what we teach them by our own example, not what we actually tell them.
My father was a professor and my mother a nurse, but they never took any interest in our education--they never checked to see if we had our homework done or helped us organize our notebooks when we were clearly struggling--that may have contributed to the problem. What it really boiled down to though is I just didn't have the energy or the emotional will at that time to bail myself out, and I see that a lot in our kids at school.
Another thing I want to say about your basics though--what do you do with the kids who have mastered them? Do you just keep teaching and reteaching the same material over and over to make sure they've mastered them and you've bored them into a hole, or do you make other educational options available? Some schools may have a 37% drop out rate, but that means that more than half did graduate, and a significant number mastered at least the basics you mentioned. Well except for counting change--a lost art and one that I taught my girls.
My parents didn't involve themselves in our education either, yet we all made it through. There was never any homework until we reached high school and then it was minimal (funny how some of the most brilliant minds came to be).
Finally, when a child masters the basics and reaches the goals, they could do independent study in a field of their choosing, no matter what age they are, as long as they incorporate reading and writing as well as computer, tutor others and move to more advanced work.
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