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Old 11-04-2009, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Sunny Florida
7,136 posts, read 12,670,441 times
Reputation: 9547

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace View Post
Not surprisingly, this is one of my pet peeves also. I cannot tell you how it offends my sensibilities as a teacher to see an English teacher's "assessment" of (let's say) Romeo and Juliet be any of the following...or their ilk.

1. A poster in which cut-outs of Zac Efron and Vanessa Hudgens stand in for Romeo and Juliet with the word "conflict" spelled out in magazine letters.

2. A rap recounting the plot of Romeo and Juliet.

3. A student-written play in which the author imagines what would've happened if Romeo and Juliet hadn't killed themselves.

I object strongly to these "kre8v" methods of assessment because they are, as the previous poster so wisely put it, all about making pretties. With the possible exception of the rap -- which asks only about the surface-level information of the plot -- none of these assessments really requires students to know any of the following actual bits of information, all (or at least most) of which I consider crucial to even a basic, fundamental understanding of this play:

* Who wrote R&J? When? Where? Why?
*The central plot, setting, and conflict of the story.
* The main characters' personalities and motivations
* The notion of irony
* The role of fate or destiny in the play
* The relationship between parents and children and how those conflicts mirror the larger conflicts between the noble families and the Prince
* The role of Mercutio and the question of why Mercutio must die
* The play's theme or central message
* Iambic pentameter
* Sonnet form
* The use of iambic pentameter to convey meaning
* The motifs of light/dark, sexuality/violence, sacred/profane
* The five-act structure of Shakespearean drama
* The performance history

See, what I think of as "knowledge chunks," or "bytes," if you will, are becoming increasingly rare as teachers search for "alternative assessment" methods -- anything except tests, which might actually measure the students' ability to learn facts and make inferences, or written essays, which might actually measure the students' ability to develop a line of argument about a literary work and support it with evidence.

Bottom line, as a teacher, I have to ask, "Was it worth the time?" Was the time I invested in "making my pretty" worth the effort? How much about Romeo and Juliet did I REALLY LEARN by cutting and pasting a picture of Zac Efron?

Seriously, let's break it down, shall we?

At a minimum, it will take me probably one hour and eight dollars to get the poster-making supplies from an arts and crafts store, and probably a half hour and three more dollars to get a copy of Teen People. At home, it will take me at least an hour to cut out pictures, cut out words, arrange them, glue them, and clean up my mess.

Two and a half hours. Gee. I could have...oh, I don't know...read Romeo and Juliet? Theoretically, since the "traffic of our stage" is only supposed to be two hours, according to the Prologue, I could watch John Leguizamo shoot up Verona Beach and have at least a half hour for popcorn and bathroom break.

How much about something outside myself did I actually learn by writing a scene that Shakespeare obviously felt would violate the purpose of his narrative? Parents will pardon my unfeeling assertion that Shakespeare's writing is most likely superior to the writing of their children, and that perhaps a more effective use of their child's time might be to study the work of someone regarded by at least a few people as the greatest playwright in this language.

In all seriousness, as a parent, I have to ask other parents a question. Actually, I have to plead with you. Please, please, when you see your child making pretties, please call your child's school. Please call your child's teacher. Please ask him or her if there is another way in which their attainment of knowledge can be measured -- such as an essay or a test. Please ask them what specific "bytes" of knowledge a "pretty" is supposed to teach them that they did not know before. Please ask them which state standard this "pretty" fulfills and whether your child can be assessed in another way.

Seriously. Please.

Teachers do this silly nonsense for a few reasons, starting with they don't know any better because they were taught that this is a legitimate form of assessment. They also find it easier to grade than a paper -- after all, we have Zac, we have Vanessa -- it's easy to see this is an "A" poster! Way easier than grading a five-page essay!

Parents, seriously, insist on a fluff-free education for your child. Insist that the teachers teach writing and grade it, at least for your child. Saying, "Mrs. Jones, I would prefer if you would give my son Carlos a five-page essay to write instead of the Zac Efron poster" will do several satisfying things:

1. It will, perhaps, communicate the idea to the teacher that she's teaching fluff.
2. It will be amusing to hear the teacher defend the idea that a poster project assesses knowledge at a deeper and more comprehensive level than an extended argument in words with textual analysis.
3. It will blow their minds.

Seriously. Without YOUR doing something active and outspoken, your students will continue to be taught this way. After all, the teacher's taught them according to their "multiple intelligences," or their "individual learning style." The fact that your child might never have been taught the difference between iambic pentameter and a hole in the ground isn't that important.

Or maybe it is.

Thank you for listening to my diatribe.
I agree with you 100%.
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Old 11-04-2009, 08:22 PM
 
1,450 posts, read 4,251,366 times
Reputation: 981
When high school students are still doing dioramas, that's a bit much!

Also, its impossible to do a project without materials, sometimes you happen to have "stuff around the house" but they had to be bought sometime. If you have a large family, perhaps some materials are handed down, or you learn what to save for future projects. But those materials do have to come from somewhere!

I feel perhaps some teachers don't assign written projects because its beyond them to teach writing? Perhaps some teachers are actually functional illeterates who couldn't grade a written paper if presented to them, but just about anyone can look at a poster or diorama and assign it a grade.

Insofar as the family tree thing, for pity sake, just make something up! We didn't know our family tree more than a few generations, but we made it "pretty" with diagrams, etc, how on earth would they know if our gg grandmother was named Mabel and was born in England in 1880? Hey. sounds good! You think they will actually back trace it? As long as it looks pretty, who cares about accuracy of contents? For the family tree, at least!
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Old 11-04-2009, 08:43 PM
 
Location: CA
830 posts, read 2,711,721 times
Reputation: 1025
Quote:
Perhaps some teachers are actually functional illeterates who couldn't grade a written paper if presented to them, but just about anyone can look at a poster or diorama and assign it a grade.
That must be it. They're "illeterate".

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Old 11-04-2009, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Liberal Coast
4,280 posts, read 6,083,596 times
Reputation: 3924
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigcats View Post
I'm not in favor of projects that cost families money (though I think that in most circumstances, it's some parents who think they have to go buy the miniature figures for the Mission project, it's not the actual assignment).

I also agree that a project should be one that requires the student know actual bits of information. But I think the right project assignment can certainly do that. I can think of plenty of ways a student could do a project to demonstrate any of the objectives on Charles Wallace's list. And can anyone seriously complain that students don't take enough tests nowadays? If the entire class was graded using projects as the assessment tool, then maybe that'd be objectionable. But the vast majority of assessment being done is paper-pencil tests, and I think there is something to be said for occasionally throwing in a different kind of assessment activity. I don't think the fact that some students do not enjoy crafty projects, or don't feel themselves artistic, is reason to not assign any, ever.

In this state, just about every 4th grader does the Mission project, or the Indian Village project, or something similar. And I have to say that if I were to sit down and research all the information that would go into me being able to construct one of these things, I would learn quite a lot more than I know now. Alas, I did not go to school here myself. Maybe I'll do it sometime one summer myself.

The Indian Villages are trickling in to the library at my school right now for display. I'm fascinated by them and they are a nice change from reading essays posted on the wall (that's nice too, but sometimes you want to look at something different). And no, most of them don't have store-bought accessories (we don't have stores here, and I would sure hope there are no parents driving kids hours out to the nearest craft stores), and they do look like they were made by kids, not parents. I can also see that from looking at them that the kids know some stuff about the tribe they've chosen. I trust that their teacher is grading them on that basis. I'm sure she's using a rubric that she has explained to them, in which their project must demonstrate knowledge of certain things. And if I know her, she's gathered a bunch of supplies of cardboard, toothpicks, woodscraps, etc, that she's offering to her students.

I think if I were a 4th grader, by the time I got to high school I'd be remembering how I constructed my model better than what I wrote in my essay, if I even remember writing the essay.

(I'm not sure how turquoise play dough beads are more valuable than a diorama??!)

As for all these teachers who supposedly hate a mess, eh, no big deal. My classroom is a holy mess more times than not at the end of the day. It's not something I worry about as a teacher. I actually do messy things a lot, knowing that many parents won't/can't have the mess at home. I think the person who decided to carpet the floor of a kindergarten classroom is an idiot, but then I relax and figure that it's their fault, not mine, if there are paint splotches, clay smears, and melted crayon embedded in front of the heater.
I know of not a single fourth grader who learned anything about mission when doing the project. Either the parent made it, or they broke the rules and bought the kit. No way, no how would I have been able to make it if we had not have just gotten the kit. I tried to make it, but I just could not do it.
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Old 11-04-2009, 11:08 PM
 
13,981 posts, read 25,944,452 times
Reputation: 39909
Ok, parents hate projects. I get it, and sometimes I agree. But, do the kids hate them? There has to be a way to engage students beyond reading and writing. My kids have done some pretty impressive hands-on work for school, including building a huge working trebuchet. They've had to build housing to protect an egg that was thrown off the 2nd story roof. Last week one son had to design a medieval garment or piece of armor.

I remember some of the projects I did as a kid, and I liked doing most of them. The projects should be age appropriate, but to say all projects are a waste of time? I disagree.
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Old 11-04-2009, 11:17 PM
 
Location: CA
830 posts, read 2,711,721 times
Reputation: 1025
We don't have kits here. Kids manage.
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Old 11-04-2009, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Liberal Coast
4,280 posts, read 6,083,596 times
Reputation: 3924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattie View Post
Ok, parents hate projects. I get it, and sometimes I agree. But, do the kids hate them? There has to be a way to engage students beyond reading and writing. My kids have done some pretty impressive hands-on work for school, including building a huge working trebuchet. They've had to build housing to protect an egg that was thrown off the 2nd story roof. Last week one son had to design a medieval garment or piece of armor.

I remember some of the projects I did as a kid, and I liked doing most of them. The projects should be age appropriate, but to say all projects are a waste of time? I disagree.
I have known many kids (myself included) who hated every project. Yes, some people are artsy and creative. Yes, some people aren't. My middle sister loved doing projects, but not all kids do.
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Old 11-04-2009, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Liberal Coast
4,280 posts, read 6,083,596 times
Reputation: 3924
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigcats View Post
We don't have kits here. Kids manage.
We have kits here in the city. If I didn't have access to them I probably wouldn't have had anything to turn in. I couldn't for the life of me to get something to look like a mission. When I draw a house it is always the same exact thing. My brain doesn't think artistically. It is really something I am not physically able to do.
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Old 11-04-2009, 11:43 PM
 
Location: CA
830 posts, read 2,711,721 times
Reputation: 1025
So then it shouldn't be assigned, because you're not good at it? Because you don't like projects?

Should we not have any multiple choice tests because a lot of kids don't like them, don't do well on them? How about short answer tests? How about essays? I hated speaking in front of class for presentations. Maybe I shouldn't have had to do that for a grade? After all, I could have aced an essay on the same subject.


I think there are generally plenty of opportunities for kids to be assessed via tests and essays. That's fine, but it's also nice to have some other ways. I don't think they should be judged on prettiness, but on whether they meet certain criteria, criteria chosen because it is relevant to the standard or theme being taught. And I think kids should do them, not parents, and it should be something planned by the kid, through research, not something that comes from a kit. And I see some good ones on display at my school.

That's all.
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Old 11-05-2009, 06:36 AM
 
Location: On a Slow-Sinking Granite Rock Up North
3,638 posts, read 6,166,537 times
Reputation: 2677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnydee View Post
I agree with you 100%.

Ditto. Excellent diatribe CharlesWallace.
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