Math, science, technology? Yes! But what about reading and writing? (high school, grades)
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Part of the problem in modern schools is that they don't teach you *how* to think. Einstein and Oppenheimer didn't become great through rote memorization for 12 years.
Schools don't teach totality. All you learn are little abstract bits of knowledge.
Ask the typical highschooler in this country about Einstein (I don't think they'd know who Oppenheimer was), and you'd get an answer like...he had big hair. He developed the theory of relatively. He developed e=mc2. That's probably about it.Students learn just enough to pass a test, they don't learn what things really mean.What does that mean? I don't know. How do you develop e=mc2? I don't know. They don't have enough references for how e=mc2 was developed. It's just something they know to pass a test.
The knowledge taught is very surface level. What's the point in teaching about Einstein, if they don't teach you how he thought. The average highschoolers learns about a lot of different figures...ann frank, einstein, lincoln, but there's not much depth or usability. They're just surface level people they learned for a test.
Another ironic thing, all these great people in the past, they didn't learn through no child left behind, or through standardized tests, or because their district got $7,500 per student a year. Some learned by candle light! I dont think student know how to learn (or can even comprehend) learning outside of a coddled environment. There's no risk taking or individuality.
Also a good article I read about the uneducated american
I'm browsing through some of the comments. As expected it's pretty much a 50/50 split in terms of whether people agree or disagree with Mr. Krugman. I have difficulty understanding how people can ever be against education or educational investments, but I know there are many who are very much against these endeavors insofar as they perceive them to be government encroachment upon their personal freedoms. True, we aren't in the best of economic conditions as a nation, but rather than wallow in our economic misery and lament the nadir of our circumstances, I think that now, more than ever, people should equip themselves with the skills and knowledge for improving their lot. Economics are cyclical. Many choose to blame X administration or Y economist for what ails us, but if we're honest with ourselves we can agree that such things are never as simple as we wish for them to be. We can control our personal educational preparations and hope that once things do get better citizens can claw their way out of the muddle so many have landed in (I speak from experience). Of course, the whole point is that as the cost of education becomes more exorbitant fewer and fewer are able to avail themselves of opportunities and until policymakers see this as a detrimental result, I wonder what can be done.
I would hope that people would be willing to dispense with ideological biases and objectively consider whether or not it makes good sense to invest in our citizens. I don't even have children (nor do I plan to), but I can see how it's in the best interests of my country to provide opportunities for intellectual and professional improvement to the citizens of this country. Economically, socially, and culturally, I believe we are much better off as a nation if we tend to our educational infrastructure. It's true that not everyone is cut out for university level coursework, but there is more than one path to meaningful education.
Last edited by Nomadic9460678748; 12-12-2009 at 03:28 PM..
The OP has just opened the flood gates with this loaded question. You're about to hear from your typical C-D Lib Arts bashers (user_id, NYCAnalyst, hsw already beat me to the punch, etc.)
Well, let me give them all a head start. A Lib Arts major would have such a horrible time trying to learn analytical/critical thinking skills. They are not capable of performing well in a big, bad business environment, because it's so scary and dangerous. They're better off flipping burgers at McDonald's or Burger King for the remainder of their lives, because they have no other use to society. Who cares that so many of them have proved time and time again that they can be successful in the business world. Who cares that so many Lib Arts majors go on to Law School, B-School, Engineering school, Med School, etc. and show that they are extremely capable of doing well in these big, bad, scary professions.
Writing skills and other "soft" skills have seemed to lost their importance in this day and age, at least that's the impression I've gotten since I graduated with my apparently "worthless" BA degree. If you even attempt to study any field that hones in on these skills, you're likely to get your fair share of bashing by the elitists out there. And they should be flocking to this thread very quickly.
Based on the number of people I see on this forum "loosing" things and giving "advise", I'd say we're in deep doo-doo when it comes to the basics of reading and writing.
Based on the number of people I see on this forum "loosing" things and giving "advise", I'd say we're in deep doo-doo when it comes to the basics of reading and writing.
This made me laugh. Oh man. Thanks you for that. I needed to laugh!
I guess I have a larger beef with the status of communication as a whole. Oftentimes people seem to lack for the ability to convey ideas in everyday experiences, much less in academic settings.
Apparently people have gotten lazy, maybe in part due to the IM, text message, internet "chats," and social sites that people use. The other possible reason is the requirement to pass tests and not really learn. In fact, a current college student I know said that people born in the 90's are a tough case (perhaps a lost cause), since apparently they are not regimented and would rather spend time on Facebook than learn.
Although, it's interesting that my college meteorology friends were required to take technical writing in addition to the standard English classes.
While I wasn't always in agreement with many of McWhorter's arguments I thought he made a lot of valid points. It was one of many things which had me thinking about this issue.
Sounds like an interesting read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomadic9460678748
And I'm aware that Einstein and Oppenheimer pose exceptions. I cite them as examples as I'm fond of the examples they provide, not because I expect everyone out there to begin work on theories of relativity or nuclear science. I had in mind the fact that Einstein, while renown as a scientific mind, was also quite adept as a writer and was arguably one of the world's finest humanists. Have you read any of his collected writings? He was so insightful and respectful of language. Or when I think if Oppenheimer I think of how amazing it was that a man of science would quote the Hindu Bhagavad Gita upon witnessing the awesome power of a nuclear detonation.
I have read Einstein's book on relativity, and I did find his manner of writing to be well done. Part of the reality is that people spend more time on surviving than academia. The Founding Fathers were exceptional in writing, but at the time, academics had little distraction from learning and talking with colleagues. If I could sit still perhaps I would read more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomadic9460678748
I read some academic journals. One of my favorites is Daedalus out of MIT. I believe it's put together by the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. I also enjoy The American Scholar, though I'm not sure it qualifies as an academic journal. Even so, I've always enjoyed the writing.
Oh! And this is one of my all-time favorite web sites:
This has been a lively, engaging discussion! I'm grateful to all of you for your civil contributions!
Cheers!
Journals generally come from the top 10% or so of the college graduates out there, so they should hopefully represent a high level of intellect. However, they do not reflect the average college student, and I don't expect the average student is going to appear exceptional, that's why they are average. If you go to a school which only accepts mainly exceptional people, then you can be surrounded by people who care.
I'm browsing through some of the comments. As expected it's pretty much a 50/50 split in terms of whether people agree or disagree with Mr. Krugman. I have difficulty understanding how people can ever be against education or educational investments, but I know there are many who are very much against these endeavors insofar as they perceive them to be government encroachment upon their personal freedoms. True, we aren't in the best of economic conditions as a nation, but rather than wallow in our economic misery and lament the nadir of our circumstances, I think that now, more than ever, people should equip themselves with the skills and knowledge for improving their lot. Economics are cyclical. Many choose to blame X administration or Y economist for what ails us, but if we're honest with ourselves we can agree that such things are never as simple as we wish for them to be. We can control our personal educational preparations and hope that once things do get better citizens can claw their way out of the muddle so many have landed in (I speak from experience). Of course, the whole point is that as the cost of education becomes more exorbitant fewer and fewer are able to avail themselves of opportunities and until policymakers see this as a detrimental result, I wonder what can be done.
I would hope that people would be willing to dispense with ideological biases and objectively consider whether or not it makes good sense to invest in our citizens. I don't even have children (nor do I plan to), but I can see how it's in the best interests of my country to provide opportunities for intellectual and professional improvement to the citizens of this country. Economically, socially, and culturally, I believe we are much better off as a nation if we tend to our educational infrastructure. It's true that not everyone is cut out for university level coursework, but there is more than one path to meaningful education.
The comments on nytimes articles are always really good.
-I dont buy the arguements about nintendo, wii, or texting, communication. People have been communicating for a 100 years. Because it changed to texts or email, people are suddenly so much dumber? You could have said the same thing about people getting lazy in the 50's or 60's vs the early 1900's. Suburban life in the 50's was easier than rural life in 1900. But kids in the 50's still had the drive to educate themselves.
And nintendo or video games, you could have said the same about radio or tv when it first came out. Or transistor radios.
-I think theres too much denial going on at all levels, from the top, to the student about how the world has changed in the last 30 years. If that information was brought down to the student, they'd be better off.
-The real question though is why has it gotten so expensive. In one of the comments, someone said their mother/grandmother got a free state education during the depression of the 30's! How could college be free in the 1930's?
To read all of this is very disheartening. Admittedly, I was an atrocious high school student who was allowed to skate through. I was capable and intelligent, but I did not want to be there and I was stoned most of the time. Hence, I learned nothing. I could barely write a coherent paragraph, let alone a cogent essay.
Somehow I was accepted into a decent university (I think an admissions officer made a mistake! haha). I was appalled at myself and my peer's lack of ability. I couldn't even do a simple algebra problem. To put it bluntly, I did not belong there and neither did 90% of my fellows. But, at least I had the ability to get caught up, whereas many of my classmates just did not. I had to teach myself algebra and trigonometry in several weeks. But, I have a natural aptitude for these subjects. My writing and speaking abilities came only after many long years of reading literature and debating politics on the internet. I am self-taught in that regard.
I have seen many facets of what people are talking about here. I have seen the lowering of standards in educational institutions. I have seen pointless regurgitation of facts and how that is not conducive to learning. I have seen the students not caring. I have seen college students unable to do rudimentary things. So, what is the answer? How do we get this generation to turn back from the brink of being dunderheads and actually display the minimum amount of intelligence and education needed to succeed in this world full of people who are prepared to compete with us? I don't know. I wish I knew the answer. All I can say is that I thank God I am not a teacher. I would not be able to put up with the bull****.
Another thing that really bothers me is the "we need more money in the educational system" people. Our forebears learned the basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic in shacks by candlelight and they were more proficient in these basic things than our children are now with their fancy facilities and master's degree holding teachers. Throwing more money at a problem is not always the best solution.
.Students learn just enough to pass a test, they don't learn what things really mean..
They don't care to learn. They just want the check mark.
One of my issues is my, so called, "gifted" kids. You'll see thread after thread about how they deserve something different in education only they don't want it. They don't want deeper work. They want easy A's. My students complain all the time about their honors courses being hard and about having to work for a grade. They're lazy. They're used to mommy doing for them. They're used to prizes just for participating. They've been coddled. They just want the grade. Learning for the sake of learning is a foreign concept to them. They want something in return.
Last year, I wanted to do an intro to stoichiometry lab where the kids make S'Mores. It's a great lab for teaching concepts like limiting reagents. When I asked my students to bring in the chocolate bars we'd need I got "Are we getting extra credit?". When I said no, they refused to ask their parents to participate. This year, kids will ask to print things in my room. I'll tell them no because I buy my own paper for my room. They'll then offer to bring some in IF I give them extra credit. THEY want to print in my room, and I'm supposed to give them extra credit for bringing in the paper?
Kids, today, don't do anything just because it's right or for personal growth or to be nice. Those concepts are foreign. They only know what's in it for them and that is their only motivation. So they study for the test just to get a grade. My chemistry kids get mad when they find that concepts they learned before keep coming back. I get "I thought we were done with that". It's, literally, out of their heads the day after the test.
Another thing that really bothers me is the "we need more money in the educational system" people. Our forebears learned the basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic in shacks by candlelight and they were more proficient in these basic things than our children are now with their fancy facilities and master's degree holding teachers. Throwing more money at a problem is not always the best solution.
Hate to tell you this but in the 21st century, they need more than the basics. They need to come out of schools literate in technology and, pretty much, ready for college. Things have changed just a bit since we lived in shacks and learned by candlelight using a slate
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They don't care to learn. They just want the check mark. 
THEY want to print in my room, and I'm supposed to give them extra credit for bringing in the paper? 
