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You misunderstand. I don't think it's good that kids have been bullied. I think it's good to learn how to deal with bullying. My daughter isn't bullied because she doesn't care what bullies think. They have no power over her. She has enough self esteem built on accomplishment that she doesn't have to care what anyone else thinks to feel good about herself.
Yeah, self esteem is a grand thing. As long as the bullies aren't bigger and prone to acting out physically.
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
She's also one of those people everyone just likes. Everyone wants to be her friend. Even the bullies. Now THAT can be problematic if she doesn't want to be their friend. She had a stalker in 1st grade. I hear he ended up being expelled after we moved her from the local school (on an unrelated issue).
And that's really a great thing. I have one of those-- my eldest. She has people skills most folks only dream of. It's done well by her, especially since she was a liberal arts major and thus has only vaguely marketable skills. But she could sell an icebox to Santa Claus. <g>
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Bullying is a bad thing. I wish it didn't exist. However, it does and most kids will face it, sooner or later. So, yes, they need to learn how to deal with bullies. Don't mistake thinking it's good to learn how to deal with a situation with thinking the situation should be tolerated.
Honestly, I don't see any other way to interpret it.
Clearly the schools are not stopping it. Children in this metro area have had their arms and legs broken and been raped by bullies-- lawsuits which have surfaced just in the last year. And those are only the stories which make the Times. For every Walker Middle School situation, in which the adults were not supervising a middle school locker room, there are countless other kids who are being tripped, punched, and sexually harassed by their peers in PE, in the hallways, on the playgrounds.
The school boards have all sorts of money to pay lawyers to defend against lawsuits when children are severely injured. But they cry poor-mouth, and administrators and teachers don't want to be bothered, when it's one of the steps leading up to serious injury. In the words of my daughter's fourth grade teacher: "Your mother thinks it's the school's fault but it's not. It's all yours." (Never mind that, the one time he was confronted by administration, one of the bullies admitted tripping, hitting and putting his hands on her because "I don't like little <insert epithet> girls". How dare she provoke the bullies by existing!)
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Ideally, kids should be taught about bullies young.
Well, see, I always told my children when they were small to find a trusted grown-up when they were in trouble. My mistake, I guess, in assuming "trusted grown-ups" were available in elementary schools.
The "target" is painted from speech in class, in responding to the teacher.
The "target" is painted because another person feels diminished or threatened by the gifted student's ability.
The "target" is painted because the bully sees a potential victim, based on the combination of difference and group think.
The "target" is painted because the teacher thinks "boys will be boys" or "if you don't know when to shut up, then you are getting what you deserve," and kids pick up on it.
The "target" is painted because the teacher permits it and encourages it, sometimes.
The "target" is painted because it can be.
Do some kids contribute to their problems? Sure.
But your proposed solution is as often the purported cause as the thing it is supposed to be the solution for. "Why aren't you using your big words with me, anymore? Huh? Talking down to me? Well, I'll show you!"
Bullies don't actually care what is really going on - only what spin they can put on it, to make the victim feel as if it is his fault. Just like most abusers do.
I am still waiting for your practical advise as to how to stop the bullying? I understand that people are offended by the inherent unfairness of the bullying situation, but life isn't fair. What exactly is your solution, since mine is apparently so abhorrent to you?
It's a good thing that I learned this, because there are still bullies in my life. The last bully I had to deal closely with was actually my boss. Sometimes you do just have to deal with it, because you have no other choice.
As an adult, you do have a choice. HR, going over the boss's head, the union (yes, I know you're in Florida, so that one isn't probably an option), switching positions within the company or switching jobs.
As a fourth grader, you're stuck. You have to rely on the grownups to deal with it. It's all well and good to say "stand up to the bullies", but in my daughter's experience, that got her knocked to the ground. (Of course, the "trusted adults" didn't see it happen, even if several classmates did.) When the bullies are bigger, older, and physically stronger, it's an automatic fail.
All I can really do is talk to the kids who come to me about how to deal with bullies.
Actually, there is a lot more you can, and should, do. There are many different resources available if you are really intersted. In fact, just googling "signs to look for bullying" would be a start.
I am still waiting for your practical advise as to how to stop the bullying? I understand that people are offended by the inherent unfairness of the bullying situation, but life isn't fair. What exactly is your solution, since mine is apparently so abhorrent to you?
I think it's good to try to figure out why one is being bullied - with younger kids, it's going to have to be the adults who figure it out, probably.
Unfortunately, it seems that most of the things that lead to being bullied - in terms of being different and isolated - are very hard to correct.
The 'simplest' way to cut down on the bullying is to seldom be alone. 'Simplest' is in marks because while the concept is very easy, the practice is pretty hard, especially for introverts or unpopular kids. Still, it is actually something that can be addressed far more easily than "stop speaking up in class" can (or should).
Yours is 'abhorrent' to me because it presumes that the victim is to blame for the bullying. "If only I behaved THIS way, they would stop bullying me!" Taking away opportunity is more effective than trying to change conduct to appease the bully.
Appeasement doesn't work.
A lot of folks are in favor of telling the teacher or other adult authority figure - and I guess I would be, too, if fewer of them had the reaction of "well, what are you doing to cause them to pick on you?" Certainly, they are the right people to turn to - but I do know that sometimes it can start a cycle of escalation, in which the bully blames the victim for received punishment and seeks to take it out further on the victim. It can snowball from there, with increasing brutality and increasing consequences in turn.
And... I have as yet seen no good way to tell which way things will go, when an adult's involvement starts. Well... I've seen one harbinger, I guess. Sometimes, the bully's disciplining parent exhibits the same behavior toward his/her child as the child does to other children, and this can both inform reaction and suggest a root to not take in the future.
I've seen a bully threatened by his father for his conduct both crumple with the parent and then be all the more angry the next day, complete with "and if you tell this time, I'll hurt you SOOO badly you won't want anybody to know!"
Yeah, it's difficult, Tilli. My point is not that I abhor your solution as that it is just not really a solution - and that solutions are very difficult, rather than as simple as some of the suggestions here have made them out to be, just as the causes are far less simple than has been put forth by some.
As an adult, you do have a choice. HR, going over the boss's head, the union (yes, I know you're in Florida, so that one isn't probably an option), switching positions within the company or switching jobs.
I did not have enough paper experience to get a comparable job elsewhere. He saw something in me and hired me when I was almost completely unqualified. I learned very quickly and soon surpassed my peers in skill level. I stayed for the resume entry and that led to a better job I could not have otherwise got. If I had gone to HR and he found out, he would have simply fired me. There was no union and he was an officer in the corporation. It was well-known that he was a bully, it's not like it would have been news to them anyway. I avoided giving him a reason to focus his unpleasant qualities on me, and instead gave him my best work. When I had enough time on my resume I left that company with a glowing recommendation that he personally wrote which actually carries a lot of weight since his name is well known in the industry locally as someone very difficult to work with. Even bullies can be valuable to you in life. In my book, it is I who won.
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As a fourth grader, you're stuck. You have to rely on the grownups to deal with it. It's all well and good to say "stand up to the bullies", but in my daughter's experience, that got her knocked to the ground. (Of course, the "trusted adults" didn't see it happen, even if several classmates did.) When the bullies are bigger, older, and physically stronger, it's an automatic fail.
Telling a grownup is your advice? That will only further infuriate the bully, and it is likely to make other kids who used to leave you alone bully you too when they find out that you are a tattletale. Standing up to a bully only works if you are strong enough or weird enough to frighten them, but you also run the risk that they will return with reinforcements.
I think you have misunderstood the context of my comment. In a perfect world there would be no bullies and I do not condone bullying, but I am realistic. This world is not perfect, and there are plenty of bullies in school. My bullying began the day they pulled me out of first grade to go to gifted and reached its peak in the fourth grade. In the fourth grade I got to experience a lovely existential agony as I seriously considered killing myself so that they couldn't hurt me anymore. So yes it helped me immensely to learn to deal with it in fourth grade, and I really wish that I had learned it sooner. I wish that someone had helped me so that it wasn't such a trial by fire. I could have saved myself a lot of pain.
It's a good thing that I learned this, because there are still bullies in my life. The last bully I had to deal closely with was actually my boss. Sometimes you do just have to deal with it, because you have no other choice. Sometimes there will be no one to help you, and so you have to learn to help yourself. Flying under the radar is a good practical tactic that works.
I agree about flying under the radar. Sometimes it's all you can do. It's really not a bad coping mechanism. Sometimes, you just have to wait for the opportunity to move on and it's best not to paint a target on yourself in the meantime.
As to other posters suggestions to go to HR, that only really works in blatant situations or if you can make a claim that the bully fears. I had one situation where I'm sure the guy was just a jerk and a bully but he came across as it being a gender issue. I had several men I work with make comments about his, obvious, gender issues. Finally, I threatened him with a sexual harassment/discrimination suit. He was appalled but left me alone after that. I'm sure it had to do with my position not my gender but it was the ace I could play to end the situation so I played it.
All this talk about bullying got me thinking. Teachers are in a way, blind here. They couldn'y see a fight unless it hit them in the face(literally, my friend witnessed this himself). I once witnessed a fight In front of the staff lounge. Nothing happened. Words can and are easily ignored, however physical bullying is much more of a problem. Luckily I have always been good socially and have avoided this so far. However if one is too timid. The problem is hard too go away. As of yet I still do not have a solution to the problem if one is physicaly weaker and teachers dont care.
Actually, there is a lot more you can, and should, do. There are many different resources available if you are really intersted. In fact, just googling "signs to look for bullying" would be a start.
There is nothing I can do if I don't directly witness the bullying other than report it to my superiors, who will do little if there isn't an eye witness. Unfortunately, in this day and age you have to have witnesses willing to testify to do anything. You need proof. I really wish they'd put the security cameras they have in the lobby into our classrooms. There have been times I could have used them.
Yeah, self esteem is a grand thing. As long as the bullies aren't bigger and prone to acting out physically.
And that's really a great thing. I have one of those-- my eldest. She has people skills most folks only dream of. It's done well by her, especially since she was a liberal arts major and thus has only vaguely marketable skills. But she could sell an icebox to Santa Claus. <g>
Honestly, I don't see any other way to interpret it.
Clearly the schools are not stopping it. Children in this metro area have had their arms and legs broken and been raped by bullies-- lawsuits which have surfaced just in the last year. And those are only the stories which make the Times. For every Walker Middle School situation, in which the adults were not supervising a middle school locker room, there are countless other kids who are being tripped, punched, and sexually harassed by their peers in PE, in the hallways, on the playgrounds.
The school boards have all sorts of money to pay lawyers to defend against lawsuits when children are severely injured. But they cry poor-mouth, and administrators and teachers don't want to be bothered, when it's one of the steps leading up to serious injury. In the words of my daughter's fourth grade teacher: "Your mother thinks it's the school's fault but it's not. It's all yours." (Never mind that, the one time he was confronted by administration, one of the bullies admitted tripping, hitting and putting his hands on her because "I don't like little <insert epithet> girls". How dare she provoke the bullies by existing!)
Well, see, I always told my children when they were small to find a trusted grown-up when they were in trouble. My mistake, I guess, in assuming "trusted grown-ups" were available in elementary schools.
I'll address one point here. How do you propose schools stop bullying? With ratios like 25 students to every adult, you can't watch every corner at every time. You can't monitor every conversation. On top of that ratio of 25:1, I have a job to do. I have to teach. At any given time, most of the teachers are in their rooms working not watching the halls so make that ratio more like 200:1 out in the hallways. Just how do you propose schools should stop bullying? I can't stop what I don't see happen.
Children should tell trusted grown ups, however, there are limits on what those grown ups can do. Unfortunately, it's your child's word against the other child's word unless someone else is willing to testify. Not much can be done without proof. In our system, you are innocent unless proven guilty. It can take a while to catch them in the act.
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Sometimes you do just have to deal with it, because you have no other choice.
You need proof. I really wish they'd put the security cameras they have in the lobby into our classrooms. There have been times I could have used them.
