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Old 01-05-2010, 09:12 AM
 
Location: A Land Not So Far Away
4,336 posts, read 3,538,904 times
Reputation: 6119

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Ok, let's say you're in charge. You have the same funding to work with that schools have now. What would you do to fix education in the United States? Where would you spend the money and why?

Personally, I think one of the issues with education in the US is that we're trying to be everything to all people and trying to prepare everyone for college. I think both are, costly, mistakes.

Well, for starters, fix the parenting. Motivation is a really big problem in today's world.

 
Old 01-05-2010, 11:45 AM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,794 posts, read 3,669,371 times
Reputation: 484
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
What I take from your use of attrition is that people who leave the welfare system would not be replaced by others joining the system.

I'd like to know what you believe a more effective social safety net would be like? The current safety net provides housing, food, medical care, child care, educational grants, monthly cash for incidentals and more if your child has a medical or psychological diagnosis, and now there is even complimentary cell phone service for needy people. I suppose you could argue that this is money that they put back into the economic system, because recipients are not allowed to save their money. So there is a lot of money going into cars, hair, make-up, socializing, and intoxicants, even though it was originally earned by workers who would love to spend it on their own needs for the same. Of course, there are two problems with that: One is that it eliminates large bureaucracies, thus cutting jobs; Two, is that they would likely take a great deal of the money out of circulation by investing for their retirements.

I have known literally thousands of people in families of welfare-dependent families who would not ever be inclined to leave the system. Their lives are spent in bureaucratic offices the way other people's lives are spent in business meetings. Each government aid system has its own bureaucracy. It's not a one-stop shop. To me, it would be easier to just get a job and manage on my own. But that is rational, and many people are irrational.

I think you would be surprised at how many people would opt for comfortable, government-subsidized poverty even with a bureaucratic nightmare if we went to an at-will unemployment model.

As far as unlimited access to education, I believe that academic secondary and tertiary education should be merit-based. I see no value in allowing people to continue their studies on taxpayer money if they are not among the top in their class. I do believe that there are untold numbers of deserving young people who are priced out of our higher education complex. I also see people wasting their money to party instead of studying, both in high school and in college. That is why I believe it should be a merit-based system.

Young people should be able to begin training for a career at the age of 14, when they are beginning middle school. They will make a lot more money with a skilled trade rather than trying to keep an unskilled minimum-wage job because they dropped out of school.

I find that you frequently make statements as facts that seem to be your opinion, and then you do not back them up. For example, what in the world do you mean by "the mis-application of morals?" Whose morals? Explain "the "consumer" of Statism" for me, please.

I personally believe that the institutionalization of poverty is no accident. I further believe that No Child Left Behind is the embodiment of the same ethic as it is applied to the institutionalization of mis-education. What's more, I fear that the ordinary residents of our fine country are not nearly as much in charge are we are led to believe. That includes (y)our freedom to post on forums about what we could to to help fix education in the US.

I think it was zthatzmanz28 who was closest: NO ONE wants education to be fixed. I would only change that to NO ONE IN POWER wants it fixed. Why would they? They pay more than I bring home a year to send each of their own children to school with other children whose parents also pay, not for their children's education, but for their peer groups, their dating pool, and later their spouses and co-workers. They don't call it an elite education for no good reason.


Remember:
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

As far as Michelangelo, I believe he worked on commission.
From an ethical perspective, welfare as we currently know it could be ended by normal attrition if any potential labor market participant can apply for unemployment compensation for being naturally unemployed. Since that scheme would also enable a zero percent official unemployment rate, official poverty can also be solved by solving for the inefficiency of a "natural" unemployment rate. Since this concept is fully compatible with the theory of supply and demand, it is reasonable to assume that any potential labor market participant sufficiently motivated to command a prevailing market based wage in the market for labor would find it easier to do so. Conversely, those potential labor market participants who would otherwise only receive some marginal utility from labor input to the economy may be better off not providing labor input to the economy if they have any interest and motivation in going to school to become more marketable.

In my opinion, our civic obligation ends at official poverty. If there is no official poverty of money in money based markets, why would there be barriers to entry for the private sector in creating products and services that can more fiscally ensure a better standard of living for any market participant with better money management skills. Mandated forms of catastrophic insurance could be practical and moral if there is no official poverty in our republic.

If no potential "education" market participant is in official poverty, why require greater use of command economics than that provided by normal market activity and assumed better employment of resources (in the market for labor as a last resort)?

How many "Michaelangelos" didn't have the opportunity to practice (to become gainfully employed) due to simple poverty? We can be ethical and moral enough to provide manna from the public sector for the general welfare of our republic.

Quote:
The only sure bulwark of continuing liberty is a government strong enough to protect the interests of the people, and a people strong enough and well enough informed to maintain its sovereign control over its government.
- Franklin D. Roosevelt, 32nd US President
 
Old 01-05-2010, 12:14 PM
 
7,006 posts, read 6,967,699 times
Reputation: 7058
Separate boys from girls, they learn differently and act up too much when they're together.

Separate the smart, quick learners from the slow, mentally challenged kids so that the gifted kids won't be held back by the dummies.

Go back to teaching the basics of education such as the three R's, and dump the liberal socialist indoctrination.

Include geography lessons in history classes.

Immerse children in foreign languages as soon as they enter preschool.

Bring back physical fitness.

Extend the school day from six hours to eight.

Repel the "No Child Left Behind" law.

Test teachers every three years and offer no tenure.

Political correctness is choking this country, go back to focusing on excellence and celebrating top honor students.

Schools should stop trying to be "fair" to make everybody happy and equal (true equality=true mediocrity); some are more equal than others. And when you try to make everybody happy, you make nobody happy.
 
Old 01-05-2010, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,405,144 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by malfunction View Post
Well, for starters, fix the parenting. Motivation is a really big problem in today's world.
I agree but I don't know how to fix this one. My students, definitely, lack motivation. They have great self esteem though . Won't do one iota more than is assigned but they all feel they deserve an A. You aren't going to have motivation in a world where everyone gets a trophy just for showing up. Maybe we need to go back to allowing winners and losers. Maybe they'd be motivated if they saw a prize at the end. Too many of my students just think the world is going to be handed to them. Unfortunately, they are headed out into a labor market which thinks nothing of leaving you unemployed if you don't live up to expectations. Sometimes through no fault of their own.
 
Old 01-05-2010, 01:21 PM
 
880 posts, read 2,017,877 times
Reputation: 637
c wallace
#3 is the answer. disruptive kids make it bad for ALL the kids who want to learn.
 
Old 01-05-2010, 04:55 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,405,144 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevej64 View Post
c wallace
#3 is the answer. disruptive kids make it bad for ALL the kids who want to learn.
Don'cha know, they're only disruptive because we teachers aren't entertaining enough. If we just made learning fun enough for them then they'd participate .

You know, I didn't realize I needed to be an entertianer and teach in bytes when I took this job. The real problem is that kids don't want to learn (both the disruptive and non disruptive kind).

I'm in trouble right now for sending a student out of my class for sleeping in class. Damned if I do and damned if I don't here. If the principal comes by and sees a head down, he'll have my head. If I send them to the office, I get told, by parents, that he was only sleeping because I'm too boring.

Every time I see these "teach your baby to..." videos, I think to myself, here comes another generation that expects learning to happen in colorful 5 second bytes set to music.

Sorry, It's been a bad day.
 
Old 01-05-2010, 05:20 PM
 
4,355 posts, read 4,194,690 times
Reputation: 5776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Don'cha know, they're only disruptive because we teachers aren't entertaining enough. If we just made learning fun enough for them then they'd participate .

You know, I didn't realize I needed to be an entertianer and teach in bytes when I took this job. The real problem is that kids don't want to learn (both the disruptive and non disruptive kind).

I'm in trouble right now for sending a student out of my class for sleeping in class. Damned if I do and damned if I don't here. If the principal comes by and sees a head down, he'll have my head. If I send them to the office, I get told, by parents, that he was only sleeping because I'm too boring.

Every time I see these "teach your baby to..." videos, I think to myself, here comes another generation that expects learning to happen in colorful 5 second bytes set to music.

Sorry, It's been a bad day.
Fortunately, our principal had been admonishing our students to take responsibility for their own learning. What a wonderful change!
 
Old 01-05-2010, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,405,144 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
Fortunately, our principal had been admonishing our students to take responsibility for their own learning. What a wonderful change!
I wish ours would. I feel like a baby sitter to 140 students. Ok, only about 100 of them . Seriously so to about 40 of them. You should see the garbage being turned in for term projects. They're shocked when I take points off because their "research" paper contains no research!! They try to tell me I didn't tell them they needed research. HMMM??? Then why did I call it a "RESEARCH" paper.

As I said, it's been a bad day.
 
Old 01-05-2010, 09:48 PM
 
4,355 posts, read 4,194,690 times
Reputation: 5776
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
From an ethical perspective, welfare as we currently know it could be ended by normal attrition if any potential labor market participant can apply for unemployment compensation for being naturally unemployed. Since that scheme would also enable a zero percent official unemployment rate, official poverty can also be solved by solving for the inefficiency of a "natural" unemployment rate. Since this concept is fully compatible with the theory of supply and demand, it is reasonable to assume that any potential labor market participant sufficiently motivated to command a prevailing market based wage in the market for labor would find it easier to do so. Conversely, those potential labor market participants who would otherwise only receive some marginal utility from labor input to the economy may be better off not providing labor input to the economy if they have any interest and motivation in going to school to become more marketable.

In my opinion, our civic obligation ends at official poverty. If there is no official poverty of money in money based markets, why would there be barriers to entry for the private sector in creating products and services that can more fiscally ensure a better standard of living for any market participant with better money management skills. Mandated forms of catastrophic insurance could be practical and moral if there is no official poverty in our republic.

If no potential "education" market participant is in official poverty, why require greater use of command economics than that provided by normal market activity and assumed better employment of resources (in the market for labor as a last resort)?

How many "Michaelangelos" didn't have the opportunity to practice (to become gainfully employed) due to simple poverty? We can be ethical and moral enough to provide manna from the public sector for the general welfare of our republic.
I am trying to have a reasonable discussion with you, but you seem to be ignoring my requests to define and explain your terms.

Specifically: natural unemployment, attrition as it relates to ending welfare, official poverty, the consumer of "Statism", warfare economy.

As I understand the term, the US does not use a command economy. We have a demand economy. Where is a demand economy required and by whom?

What about those people who are not interested in being employed? How do they fit into your plan? I've asked about this more than once, as have other posters, but you have yet to address this question.

The term natural unemployment is particularly confusing. Everyone is naturally unemployed at birth. So are you suggesting that everyone be put on the dole in infancy? If not then when? Under what circumstances?

Your prose is so dense as to render it nearly unreadable. Why the reluctance to provide examples, which I requested? I am assuming that you are trying to communicate, but this receiver is not getting your message clearly.

Also, this thread is about helping to fix education in the US. So far the only relevant comments that I can find in your posts refer to some sort of plan to pay people an unemployment wage so that they may continue to study to improve their marketability. From what I can understand, people should be able to study whatever they like, for as long as they like, whether or not they have any aptitude or prerequisite skills, and regardless of whether or not the field for which they intend to study has any demand.
 
Old 01-06-2010, 03:56 AM
 
Location: On the Ohio River in Western, KY
3,387 posts, read 6,604,770 times
Reputation: 3362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Ok, let's say you're in charge. You have the same funding to work with that schools have now. What would you do to fix education in the United States? Where would you spend the money and why?

Personally, I think one of the issues with education in the US is that we're trying to be everything to all people and trying to prepare everyone for college. I think both are, costly, mistakes.

First off eliminate the children from school that are unwilling to learn (AKA the problem children, that are forced to be there that always disrupt class, cause problems, unruly, basically felons in training).

Bring back recess on more than a weekly or bi monthly basis, and return it to a daily basis.

Incorporate more hands on learning, such as projects and practical labs.

Start at the beginning and go from there. *History is a great example. I remember not learning much if ANYTHING from the period right after Alexander to the Black Plagues, and from the Civil War to current topics. Start with the academically accepted beginning of history and teach from there. A basic recap at the beginning of the next year, then continue where you left off.

You can't learn algebra if you can't do basic addition. Same with English and spelling, so why are some subjects different?

Around middle school, start to academically divide the children onto "fast track" type programs, based on their future career wishes and their grades; and go from there. Not everyone needs to learn Physics, especially if their future consists of fast food or factory work; while lawyers don't need to know how to in theory split atoms.

Bring back the Vo-Tech programs, and get rid of the stigma surrounding them.

Just a few things on the top of my head.
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