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Old 04-17-2010, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,431,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marmac View Post
--I work every Saturday"

Are you required to report in and be teaching on Saturdays?--no

What bugs me is what a recently retired teacher said who took retirement as soon as eligible----" I have had enough of sarificing my family's family time for my profession"

Yet, this was the same person who constantly commented on all the times during the week in summer she went to the lake.

Who always commented on their busy family weekend schedule------weddings to attend, birthday parties, anniversaries.

Many of us who retired from the " real world" recount missing many of those things. Nearly half of my chidren's activities we were unable to attend.

Not complaining then-----it's called earning a living.

However, when teachers complain about theirt personal/ family life being sooooo affected by teaching, I got to laugh.

Maybe if those arrogant teachers asked the students in their class about the parents work schedules, they would realize they were better off than 90% of their students' parents in regards to work schedules.

They also, in many districts, would discover their wages were better than the majority of their students' parents.

But the parents aren't the ones crying--" woe is me"--like many of the teachers are.
In a sense, I am. I report in on Monday morning and I'd better be ready to perform. I'd better have my grading done and my lesson plans in place. Given all I have to do, there is no choice but to do those things on the weekend. I don't have time during the week. And my boss will know if I don't do them. Just because I don't report to a boss doesn't mean my boss isn't watching. It will be, painfully, obvious if I didn't do my job over the weekend and I wish is were as simple as simply punchng a clock for a set number of hours on Saturday and then going home to enjoy the rest of my weekend. My Saturday often bleeds over onto Sunday.

Why wouldn't my wages be better than average for my district? My education and other requirements to get this job are WAY above average. I have more education than over 90% of the population. WHY would I expect to make average wages? Yes, I'd expect my wages to be better than average for the parents of the students I teach. What I do requires more than what they are required to do, on averge.

You have no idea what you are talking about WRT sacrificing family time. Having ZERO time for family and friends during the year cannot be made up for with trips to the lake in the summer. Since I've started teaching, I've been able to attend one of my children's parent teacher conferences. On Thursday, after helping her prepare for the better part of a year, I will miss my daughter's music competition becuase we are having a parent information night. I, often, don't have time to help my own kids with their homework because I stay too late at school and have too much of my own homework to do.

I would love to see year round schools with a sane schedule for teachers. What we have is an insane one for 9.5 months and then 9 weeks off. You can't make up for being MIA in your own kids lives for 9.5 months with a few vacations. Yes, I try to get the the lake more often than most in the summer. It's one of the few things I can offer my kids in exchange for them sharing their mom with 140 of my students during the school year.

You are going to have to save your arguments for someone who didn't work in the "real world". I spent 20 years working as an engineer before becomming a teacher. I, rarely, missed a PTA meeting let alone a parent teacher conference or a music competition. Yes, I had to put my hours in but I controlled when they were put in. Even when I worked production, you could always switch off with someone else if you had something going. We were all in the same boat and knew that next time it would be us asking so we did it.

If the economy hadn't tanked, and I hadn't seen it coming and already had this career change in place, I would have stayed in production because it's more mom friendly than teaching is. I have long stretches of time when I don't feel like I'm part of my own family and I hate the summers off. It's so weird to go from all engines full forward to a dead stop and just when you get used to being a little relaxed, it's time to start all the engines up again. I WISH they'd go to year round school with a 4 day school week so the teachers had the 5th day to prep. Then I could actually take a weekend during the year. I'd still probably be SOL WRT my children's parent teacher conferences (tend to be at the same times because schools are on pretty much the same schedule but, at least I could be more of a parent during the school year.)
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Old 04-17-2010, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,431,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
An industrial or research scientist (with my education and years of experience) in my area can expect to work about 222 days a year if you count, vacation time, sick days, federal holidays and weekends. That is a difference of 32 days (since I am contractually obligated to 190 days) and they make on average 30K more than I do. And I choose that so I do not complain about it but seriously do not tell me how "good" I have it.

That was YOUR CHOICE, you could have gotten a degree and been a teacher but you CHOSE not to. Why blame me for your choices?

Do you think teachers do not pay taxes? We have the exact same property taxes you do and we get paid significantly less than our peers in private industry.

You chose your job, as did I. You could have been a teacher, why didn't you? Second, teachers do not have the option of going to sleep, or just spending their evenings with their own children, since we have to grade and prep. I have NO prep period in school so ALL of my grading happens at home.

So I take it you have decided that ALL of your children should be teachers since we have it so much easier?

You seem to be blaming teachers for the choices you made in your career. No one forced you to be whatever you are, why didn't you become a teacher since we are sooooo overpaid and underworked?

I worked very hard on my college and post graduate work. All requirements for my job. Why should I not have the benefits of my white collar education? Just because you chose otherwise?

Education is a partnership between students, parents and teachers. ALL of those must be in place for success, a single teacher cannot ruin a student. And I seriously doubt that your child had 50 some odd horrendous teachers throughout their school years. If your child is not proficient in ANYTHING you may want to look elsewhere than teachers.

BTW it is Saturday and I just got back from the local library where I was tutoring two of my students for free. And yes I do this all the time. Matter of fact I will be out helping a group of seniors (not even in my class anymore) with their research projects tomorrow. Yes I do this every weekend, and I do not get paid.
The part about not having time for our own families is so true. This was one thing I did not foresee when I switched from industry to teaching. I had a lot more time with my family when I worked in industry. Even if I worked 60 hours in a given week, when I was home, I was home. I didn't drag a box of papers that needed grading everywhere I went like I do now AND I got paid for the extra time I worked. If they had to pay me for every hour I work, they couldn't afford me.

You know you're going to get told what you do on the weekend doesn't count because no one is making you punch a clock, right?

FTR, I agree about choosing our wages. The only reason I complain about mine is I'm well below average for a teacher. Average for a teacher with my experience and education is about half of what I made as an engineer with potential for growth. I make about 1/3 of what I made as an engineer and will never see a raise. THAT I complain about. I didn't see that one coming. I was led to believe that charter schools have stepped wage systems like public schools but they don't. You just stay until you find something better and leave. Since I'm fighting the desire to put down serious roots (I'd be more than happy to work with groups on the weekend if I felt I was somewhere I could stay) it bugs me.
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Old 04-17-2010, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,431,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Be careful about throwing stones from your glass house I am not the one who did not understand the OP's original statement. And we are all very impressed that you were once an engineer, so you do not have to repeat it anymore.. As far as your calculations on average hours worked I am not sure where you come up with this 40hr week nonsense but short of White Collar workers a 40hr week is a rarity. Most people I know who are still lucky enough to be employed, are working close to 50hrs a week 50 weeks a year, with a whole 4 paid holidays (of course if one of those holidays fall on a normal day off you loose it) and no such thing as sick days. That is the real world. If you are in sales or salaried management 60hrs a week is more likely. If you are a blue collar worker, your risk of being killed on the job is 100 times what it is for teachers. Many jobs require constant exposure to chemicals that require the work site to be posted with signs warning of exposure to asbestos, carcinogens, and chemicals that cause birth defects. Most blue collar jobs subject workers to constant hazards which can and do result in life changing injuries. I have personally been injured several times and some of my injuries will never heal. Most of my co workers and I live with constant pain due to work related injuries. I can promise you if you spent 1 day working in my world you would appreciate just how good you really have it. So if you do not like your pay, by all means go do something else, but quit whining, and trying to convince the rest of us how bad you have it..
The point, which you have missed, is that I have enough experience working in the "real world" to actually talk about what it's like and compare the two.

As to the rest of your comments, call OSHA. That's what they're there for.

I don't need to work in your world. Your world is of your choosing. What I take issue with is being told that mine has it so easy by people who don't know what they are talking about.

I got an education so I wouldn't have to do a blue collar job or something that abused my body. I spent several years in such jobs. They convinced me college was a really good idea. If you didn't take the initiative to get out, don't complain about what you get but, please, don't sit here and tell me I don't know what it is to work long hours under stress and have oodles of time to spend with my family because you do not have a clue.

As to my misunderstanding that the original post was in jest, that has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.

I will keep repeating that I was an engineer as long as people insist on trying to compare what they do to what I do without personal experience to back up their beliefs. I have that experience. Well over 20 years of it of you include my blue collar days. No, this is not the easiest job I ever had. No, the summers off don't make up for what I give up during the year. The easiest job I ever had, by far, was working in productioin supervision. The hours were long but there was no part of that job that went home with me. It was all left behind as my tail lights left the parking lot. While we worked a lot of hours, it was, usually, pretty easy to find someone who wanted OT pay to take a day if we needed one off.

I used to do the blue collar OT schedule as well and I can tell you that many more people asked for OT than complained about being made to work it. In fact, I, rarely had to force the issue. Most of the time, I had plenty of volunteers to cover weekend maintenance and clean up and they were paid quite well for their time. I only got straight time, because I was white collar (which they made fun of), but, at least I was compensated for my time. As a teacher, if they paid me based on the hours I work at the rate of pay I made as a summer intern as Junior in college over 20 years ago, I'd double my wages.

I don't expect to make what I did as an engineer as a teacher but I do expect a fair wage which matches my education and the demands of the job. Most of the time, people who work long hours make decent wages. Teachers should too. I don't think, eventually, being able to get to $60K is unreasonable at all given what this job demands and what is at stake. I also don't have a problem with low pay in the beginning because much of what teachers do is learned in the classroom on their feet not in a classroom in their seat. It will be a few more years before I'm effective and I think I have the right to expect my pay mirror that. The sad truth is the average blue collar worker with no education out earns me, has more time off than I do, and has benefits and a retirement package I can only dream of....and here I am doing the lowly job of educating their children.....yeah, that's not worth much.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 04-17-2010 at 01:33 PM..
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Old 04-17-2010, 02:34 PM
 
191 posts, read 456,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Wow I stand corrected 185 days. How do you do it? It must be a living hell! Look, I am not looking to crucify teachers, but in the overall scheme of things you guys have it pretty good, and the rest of us get a little weary of hearing teachers complain. Most of the parents you show such distain for, are working jobs that make yours seem like a cake walk. The majority of this country is still blue collar, and spend their lives sacrificing their health and their bodies for a pay check. If they are lucky enough to own their own home, over the course of their life on average they will pay over $100,000 hard earned dollars in property taxes which will mostly go to education. Many will be working a job where you are so physically exhausted at the end of the day all you can do is eat dinner, go to sleep, and get up and do it again the next day until your body eventually wears out. Try working a job where the working conditions may require you to do physical labor in 100 degree heat, or climb a pole in a freezing storm to restore someone’s power at 2:00AM. Try looking forward to a future which includes being fired as soon as your body will no longer take the abuse, and without a Union or tenure to protect you. Try looking forward to debilitating physical conditions in your 40s and 50s due to worn out joints and vertebrae. Then, send your children to school in hopes they can escape the type of life you live, and they end up after 12 years not even proficient in reading, writing, english, math, and history. Then listen to teachers who have had 12 years to teach them, tell you how it is your fault because your child is deficient, or you did not do enough, while at the same time enjoying time off, job security, and benefits that only government employees can imagine. By the way, it is 4:00 AM Saturday, I am starting a 10hr shift, and yes I do this all the time.

As someone who has worked on both sides here, I would like to put my two cents in.

First of all, let me make a suggestion that before you decide how much teachers work, I think you should actually go into a school and see for yourself. Just a thought.

I have been a publicist with one of the largest publishing companies in the world. While there, I worked on weekends, travelled relentlessly, and definitely put in a lot of hours.

I am now a teacher. I work on weekends, show up at 7:30am to tutor, stay until 5:30 or later to tutor, go to basketball games, help with special events, etc.

What I am saying is that I worked hard doing both jobs. The major difference that I see between the two is that I am much more emotionally tired as a teacher. Actually, there was a study done (I will try to find it in order to cite it) ranking the top 10 most stressful jobs and teacher was like #3 because of the amount of decisions they have to make per day.

Most property taxes do NOT go to education. That is hysterical.

Further, people sound ridiculous when they start voicing opinions about something they have no knowledge of at all. It is the reason that I don't go posting on the Health & Wellness forums about how doctors should or shouldn't do their jobs. That would make me sound like an idiot.

Teaching is tough. Period. End of story. And, I can guarantee you that it is not the parents who are working that most of us are griping about. It is the parents who don't work, don't give a crap about their kid, and then yell at me when their kid is caught gang tagging in a bathroom and they get suspended. Teachers could tell you stories about parents that would make you sick to your stomach. I am too busy complaining about the child abusers and drug addicts to have any free time to complain about a parent who works too hard.

Finally, let me say one more thing here. I love my job. I know how hard I work every day (and some of it is physical, like re-painting my room, helping to re-carpet to save the district money). I realize that it is a lovely benefit to get the summers off, and I don't take that for granted at all. And you know what, I do see results. All good teacher's see results. My results are not going to look like the results coming out of a school in an upper-middle class area. That is just not possible. However, this year 4 of my students who just moved to the US a year ago, speaking literally no English, passed the state writing exam. I call that results. So, and forgive my phrasing here, you can take your opinion and buzz off. People like you don't even really bother me because on Monday, I will go look at 200 8th graders whose lives I can help improve. Every day I know I do something significant.
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Old 04-17-2010, 02:44 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,795 posts, read 7,263,418 times
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Quote:
An industrial or research scientist (with my education and years of experience) in my area can expect to work about 222 days a year if you count, vacation time, sick days, federal holidays and weekends. That is a difference of 32 days (since I am contractually obligated to 190 days) and they make on average 30K more than I do. And I choose that so I do not complain about it but seriously do not tell me how "good" I have it.
You do have it good, and apparently you are not smart enough to know it.

Quote:
That was YOUR CHOICE, you could have gotten a degree and been a teacher but you CHOSE not to. Why blame me for your choices?
I do not recall blaming anyone; I simply stated the fact that most jobs are more difficult than yours. Wise up Chumley, the whole world can not become teachers. In order for the world to function we need people to build houses, repair cars, grow crops, maintain heavy equipment and the thousands of other jobs that make yours seem like a vacation. Most make less than teachers and do not whine about it.

Quote:
Do you think teachers do not pay taxes? We have the exact same property taxes you do and we get paid significantly less than our peers in private industry.
Your flawed logic is systemic of the type of thinking coming out of schools today. The public is deluged with bond measures every election for ever increasing education costs, and continually told how the problem with education is not enough money, regardless of the fact that the more money we throw at education the worse it gets. Then you justify the fact that the average parent is paying what they are for mediocre results, by stating that teachers pay taxes too. Gee... do you think you have a vested interest. Then you start crying about your pay again.

Quote:
You chose your job, as did I. You could have been a teacher, why didn't you? Second, teachers do not have the option of going to sleep, or just spending their evenings with their own children, since we have to grade and prep. I have NO prep period in school so ALL of my grading happens at home.
I know this may be a shock to you but not everyone has the opportunity to go to college and get a no-load job. Some people are saddled with burdens of responsibility at an early age; some are not even able to finish high school.
In my industry it is not uncommon to have work shifts that go on for 20-30 hrs of hard physical labor, so don't tell me about the option to go to sleep, and forgive me if I cannot pity you for having to grade a few papers, or helping some poor kid understand what you are supposed to teach him after your grueling 6.5hr day .

Quote:
So I take it you have decided that ALL of your children should be teachers since we have it so much easier?
Sure I would rather my kids be teachers than to have to work as hard as I have.

Quote:
You seem to be blaming teachers for the choices you made in your career. No one forced you to be whatever you are, why didn't you become a teacher since we are sooooo overpaid and underworked?
Huh? Where exactly did I blame anyone for my choices?: smack: You seem to be under the mistaken impression that everyone came from a prosperous, stable home where they had the option to go to college if they wanted to. What an incredibly naive view of life you have. Real life can be ugly, unfair, and a struggle to just survive. But I am obviously wasting time trying to explain that to you, it is not something you can relate to.

Quote:
I worked very hard on my college and post graduate work. All requirements for my job. Why should I not have the benefits of my white collar education? Just because you chose otherwise?
Again, with your upper class prejudice, you are assuming that everyone chooses to be where they are because you did. I do not begrudge you your benefits; you are the one whining you are not being fairly compensated. Like you said yourself, you made your choices. The problem lies in that you feel your degree entitles you to more than you are getting.
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Old 04-17-2010, 02:59 PM
 
9,803 posts, read 16,129,165 times
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In our ditrict, the school day runs from 8 :10 to 3:10

The teachers are required to be in the building from 8:00to 4:30. M-Thursday ( til 3:15 on Friday)
( an eight hour day, considering the lunch period )

The parking lot is empty at 4:30 except for the night custodians. ( 3:15 on Fridays)

I have yet to see a teacher miss anything on their " social calendar" because of their work schedule.

Heck, graduation parties held on the weekends might have a lot of invitees missing because of work schedules but you can bet the teachers make every single one.


Same with weddings,anniversaries, birthdays or whatever.

I have never heard of a teacher unable to attend a weekend activity cuz they were soooo darn busy with their job.

Some of the same posters who arre complaining about no wage increase, teachers getting laid off, supplies being short--------are the same ones who propose longer school year.

Yup, just pick that money off the old money tree in the school play ground.
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Old 04-17-2010, 03:03 PM
 
6,293 posts, read 10,549,503 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
I know this may be a shock to you but not everyone has the opportunity to go to college and get a no-load job. Some people are saddled with burdens of responsibility at an early age; some are not even able to finish high school.
In my industry it is not uncommon to have work shifts that go on for 20-30 hrs of hard physical labor, so don't tell me about the option to go to sleep, and forgive me if I cannot pity you for having to grade a few papers, or helping some poor kid understand what you are supposed to teach him after your grueling 6.5hr day.

Whatever if you want to go to collage you can. There are grants and loans. It is never to late. I earned my BS at the age of 30, and I'm working on my masters now. I also teach full time and have a child who is on the autism spectrum. Stop bellyaching, and change your life if you don't like it. I work very hard for my money. For you to say teachers don't work hard for their money is BS!!! I go to work every day knowing I could be injured by one of my students, I teach SPED. Yet I do it because I love my job, and my students. I work 10 months a year, but I'm only contracted for 10 months a year. I'm tired of people talking about things they have no knowledge of.
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Old 04-17-2010, 03:05 PM
 
191 posts, read 456,505 times
Reputation: 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by marmac View Post
In our ditrict, the school day runs from 8 :10 to 3:10

The teachers are required to be in the building from 8:00to 4:30. M-Thursday ( til 3:15 on Friday)
( an eight hour day, considering the lunch period )

The parking lot is empty at 4:30 except for the night custodians. ( 3:15 on Fridays)

I have yet to see a teacher miss anything on their " social calendar" because of their work schedule.

Heck, graduation parties held on the weekends might have a lot of invitees missing because of work schedules but you can bet the teachers make every single one.


Same with weddings,anniversaries, birthdays or whatever.

I have never heard of a teacher unable to attend a weekend activity cuz they were soooo darn busy with their job.

Some of the same posters who arre complaining about no wage increase, teachers getting laid off, supplies being short--------are the same ones who propose longer school year.

Yup, just pick that money off the old money tree in the school play ground.
Are you a teacher? Do you work in a school?
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Old 04-17-2010, 03:06 PM
 
6,293 posts, read 10,549,503 times
Reputation: 7505
Quote:
Originally Posted by marmac View Post
In our ditrict, the school day runs from 8 :10 to 3:10

The teachers are required to be in the building from 8:00to 4:30. M-Thursday ( til 3:15 on Friday)
( an eight hour day, considering the lunch period )

The parking lot is empty at 4:30 except for the night custodians. ( 3:15 on Fridays)

I have yet to see a teacher miss anything on their " social calendar" because of their work schedule.

Heck, graduation parties held on the weekends might have a lot of invitees missing because of work schedules but you can bet the teachers make every single one.


Same with weddings,anniversaries, birthdays or whatever.

I have never heard of a teacher unable to attend a weekend activity cuz they were soooo darn busy with their job.

Some of the same posters who arre complaining about no wage increase, teachers getting laid off, supplies being short--------are the same ones who propose longer school year.

Yup, just pick that money off the old money tree in the school play ground.

I do plan on the weekend, but I am organized enough to do the things I want, and relax on the weekend too. I only spend 1 - 4 hours on the weekend working. I usually try to get to work early to plan, so I don't have to do it on the weekend.
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Old 04-17-2010, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,431,289 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spazkat9696 View Post
I do plan on the weekend, but I am organized enough to do the things I want, and relax on the weekend too. I only spend 1 - 4 hours on the weekend working. I usually try to get to work early to plan, so I don't have to do it on the weekend.
That was my plan until my students figured out I'm there early. Now I just have a room full of kids an hour before/after school, sigh. Parents seem to think if I'm there, I'm there to tutor their kids. This is, probably, more of an issue at charter and private schools where students may be dropped off early or picked up late. I have several students whose parents don't pick them up until 4:00 or 5:00 who will hang out in my room if I let them and three or four are always waiting outside my door when I get in at 7:00. So much for getting my planning done at school. It ends up being the weekend. By the time I do get home at night, I do what I have to and try to spend some time with my family. So, I spend Saturday prepping.
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