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And as far as earning your paycheck. The student with the disability in most cases has to work much harder for the grade than the other students. These kids are doing exactly what you suggest. They are falling, and falling again, and falling again and getting back up every time they face the ignorance and prejudice that is so prevalent in this thread.
Not really. Society is picking them back up every time, and they aren't really falling because they aren't allowed to anymore.
They never learn how to manage their own problems because it started with their parents expecting exceptions and accommodations for them from an early age.
With suitable accommodations, they all make the honor role. There is nothing mediocre about the efforts of somebody with a disability. On the contrary, they work twice as hard as the other kids to attain similar results.
Twice as hard? No, they have twice as much time, so how do you figure that is equitable? The extra time is so they don't have to work twice as hard. Those 'suitable accommodations' make sure those kids don't have to work twice as hard.
Last edited by NoExcuses; 04-30-2010 at 08:58 PM..
In my industry working with high voltage electricity, it is better to have someone take extra time and make sure everything is right, than to have the type of person who is quick to jump to uneducated conclusions and is wrong. The latter end up dead.
How many disabled people would you hire to work with high voltage? Surgeons take their time to do things right as well, but how many surgeons are there who are labeled 'disabled' and can't read? Or who are truely disabled.
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Originally Posted by Tough Questions
The definition of success in most jobs is to complete tasks successfully in the shortest amount of time (TIME IS MONEY). If they are constantly getting help and extra time as a young person they are going to be shocked when the boss tells them to hurry up when they are in the adult work world. In the adult world it is sink or swim.
Many of the kids in the local High Schools getting this extra help are straight A students who expect to get to college and work in the professional world. They will be shocked when they attempt to prosper in the corporate office and the boss tells them that he needs that report by 4:00 PM today, no excuses! The young employee will tell the boss that in school due to his ADHD he was given an extra few hours to complete tests and assignments. What will the demanding boss say?
The kids who have all that extra time and all that extra help use those things as crutches. They never learn how to do it all by themselves in the expected amount of time because excuses have been made for them all the years they were supposed to be learning how to do it themselves.
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Originally Posted by filihok
One point I think you, and others are missing, is that school is not the competition. School gets you ready for the competition. That some people need to work harder (Yes, the people who are getting these accommodations are most likely working harder than those that don't) in order to achieve shouldn't come as a shock to anyone.
Again, how does extra time and extra accommodations equal working harder for anything?
Last edited by NoExcuses; 04-30-2010 at 09:26 PM..
They never learn how to manage their own problems because it started with their parents expecting exceptions and accommodations for them from an early age.
While this may be true in some cases it is certainly not the norm.
I think it is also a case of lots of misconceptions about what disabilities really are.
Not directing this next part at you, NoExcuses
When people say things like people with disabilities need to learn to 'tough it out' or 'work through it' or things like that it only shows an utter misunderstanding of what disabilities are. No one would suggest that a person with a broken leg or cancer should just 'shake it off'
Again, how does extra time and extra accommodations equal working harder for anything?
When a child has a legitimate disability that, by definition, means that they cannot learn as easily as children without the disability.
So, every class, every day, every semester, every year, that child with the disability has to put in more work just to stay even with the other kids.
What percentage of class time do you think tests take up? A pretty small percentage. The vast majority of the time the kid with the disability has to work harder than everyone else.
learning disability says it all---dis=not able...
more effort, more time to just be on equal footing...
one person walks a flat course, one walks a 15% incline--which one is using more effort seems pretty evident
that is what it is like for someone with a learning disability
the more severe the disability, the steeper the incline...
When people say things like people with disabilities need to learn to 'tough it out' or 'work through it' or things like that it only shows an utter misunderstanding of what disabilities are. No one would suggest that a person with a broken leg or cancer should just 'shake it off'
I agree here for one reason, the same reason I think extra time and special accommodations is going about it all wrong.
What needs to happen is those kids need to learn how to do it for themselves, not how to rely on extra time and special accommodations to get them through life.
What should be taught to all these special needs kids is how to learn to think and produce what is expected of them throughout their lives instead of learning how to manipulate society and the workplace so the expectations aren't the same for them.
Their help should be in learning methods of learning, not specific classwork. Since so many of you believe there are true disabilities in honor students, those kids should be smart enough to not need help in subject matter, but in method for any subject matter.
ALL kids could use that kind of teaching. ALL kids could use lessons on the most effective WAY/METHOD to use for maximum learning. Then nobody would need extra time or special accommodations.
When a child has a legitimate disability that, by definition, means that they cannot learn as easily as children without the disability.
So, every class, every day, every semester, every year, that child with the disability has to put in more work just to stay even with the other kids.
What percentage of class time do you think tests take up? A pretty small percentage. The vast majority of the time the kid with the disability has to work harder than everyone else.
Not when so many accommodations are made for them. When someone is sitting next to specific kids telling them how to do things during tests and class, how is that child working twice as hard? They aren't. They are getting so much help they don't need to work twice as hard.
I think what is happening is, all these labelled kids get all this extra help so they don't have to work harder than anyone else. They only have to work as hard, or not even as hard and get the same results because of all the help.
They are not taught to work harder, so they never overcome, they stay the same and rely on the extra help.
Their help should be in learning methods of learning, not specific classwork. Since so many of you believe there are true disabilities in honor students, those kids should be smart enough to not need help in subject matter, but in method for any subject matter.
This IS exactly what happens. When kids get assistance in a class or on a test they DO NOT get help with the material. They get help with how to do the test or assignment. And guess what, when you can't understand the test it's going to take more time while someone helps you figure it out than it will someone without the disability who doesn't have that problem.
As people have pointed out, it's not that these kids can't learn the material, it's that they don't understand the arbitrary (and outdated, IMO) techniques used to judge if they have learned the material.
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What should be taught to all these special needs kids is how to learn to think and produce what is expected of them throughout their lives instead of learning how to manipulate society and the workplace so the expectations aren't the same for them.
This isn't what goes on (in the majority of cases. Do I think some people take advantage of the system? Of course. Every system has someone who takes advantage of it) If you think that it is I strongly suggest that you involve yourself in some way so you can see what really goes on.
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ALL kids could use that kind of teaching. ALL kids could use lessons on the most effective WAY/METHOD to use for maximum learning. Then nobody would need extra time or special accommodations.
Do you think that every person learns the same? When I was in school I could learn math by sitting in the back of the class joking with my friends and seeing it done once on the black board. Because I could do that, does that mean that that should be the standard and that everyone should be able to learn math in that same way?
Not when so many accommodations are made for them. When someone is sitting next to specific kids telling them how to do things during tests and class, how is that child working twice as hard? They aren't. They are getting so much help they don't need to work twice as hard.
I think what is happening is, all these labelled kids get all this extra help so they don't have to work harder than anyone else. They only have to work as hard, or not even as hard and get the same results because of all the help.
They are not taught to work harder, so they never overcome, they stay the same and rely on the extra help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
So, every class, every day, every semester, every year, that child with the disability has to put in more work just to stay even with the other kids.
Educate yourself.
As I said in my previous post, I have no doubt that some people play the system. I also have no doubt that that is a very small percentage.
I'm curious as to what your experience is with this topic?
A lot of people have misconceptions about what disabilities mean, not through any fault of their own but just through a lack of any real education or experience.
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