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Whatever--we will just keep on kicking your butt academically while you deny the possibility of this.
Why do you refuse to prove your claim? I'm guessing you can't. Having a program where it's possible is not the same as MOST COLLEGE BOUND STUDENTS GRADUATING WITH 1-2 YEARS OF COLLEGE CREDIT. I know it's possible because my daughter will do it. I never claimed it was impossible. I'm challenging your claim that MOST college bound students do this in your district. Please post the stats to support your, outlandish, claim. Posting about a program in which it is possible doesn't support your claim. It's possible where I am too, however, MOST college bound graduates will only graduate with a few college credits here. Very few will have 1-2 years of college completed when they graduate from high school. I'm guessing very few do it where you are too since you refuse to support your claims.
Given the fact you think posting about a program in which it's possible to do what you claim is proof that MOST do it, I'd question the quality of education in your area. I came out a poor district and my logical reasoning skills are better than that.
Seriously, if there were a district where MOST college bound students were completing 1-2 YEARS of college before high school graduation, I wouldn't think it was a good district. I'd think it was a bad one. So bad that most of their college bound students needed to head off to college early via dual enrollment to get out of it. A good program would be able to offer classes to their college bound students in the high school as ours does and ours isn't even a great program.
One thing you have to keep in mind is that colleges do dummy down to the quality of thier incomming student. So making, outlandish, claims about most students graduating with 1-2 years of college completed doesn't impress me. The best districts here don't send their students to college early. They don't have to. What they do is send them to college ready for college. The best districts here send 94% of their students directly to 4 year universities after graduation and the other 6% to community college. They pride themselves on offering high enough courses that they don't have to send their seniors off to college like our local schools do. The truth of the matter is, the school has nothing to offer dd after 11th grade. She will have completed their program and there aren't enough students like her in the district to warrant higher level courses so they'll send her to the community college to take college level classes.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 05-29-2010 at 01:06 PM..
What is your point? Her friends, no matter what their ages or intellectual ability are into the same things. This has nothing to do with either age or intellectual ability. It has to do with preferences.
A rose by any other word...
The fact is, if you're highly intelligent -- particularly for your age -- you just tend not to like the same things that other folks closer to the bulge of the bell curve do. That is part and parcel of what makes up "preferences" in the first place.
Some examples of what I mean:
Person A loves the Monty Python sketch during Holy Grail in which a peasant declares that he and his fellows have formed an anarcho-socialist collective and claim that they're being "repressed" when Arthur claims to be king of all Britain. They find the deliberate anachronism of a Marxist rebel in ancient Britain to be very amusing and love the clash between buying into the Arthurian mythology about the Lady of the Lake and Excalibur and questioning why a "watery bint" who "lobs a scimitar" at Arthur makes him the supreme authority.
Out of curiosity, is that statewide or just local? We have areas with schools like you describe but, for the most part, Michigan schools are pretty low. At least I think they're low. Now I'm going to have to google SAT scores by state....
Only 9% of Michigan students participate in the SAT. Not enough data to do any good. 100% of our students take the ACT though.
Never mind, I found what I wanted. Here's a link to SAT scores by state for anyone who wants to look.
Um, it looks like 7 out of 11 states with higher participation than Maryland outscore Maryland in math. Perhaps they're all great schools but I'd say you have lots of company up there.
Michigan's scores look great but only 9% of ouar kids take the test so they'd better look great.
If it were my kid, I'd do it. When I was in school they wanted to skip me ahead a few grades. My Mom thought it'd be a bad idea because she was skipped ahead two grades when she was in school.
I was in 2nd grade and had an 8th grade reading level. They wanted to put me into 4th grade at the beginning of the next school year Vs 3rd grade. My Mom said "No."
Then, when I was in 5th grade, they wanted to move me ahead to 7th grade because I was smart enough. Again, my Mom said "No."
Result: I was bored to tears in school. There weren't nearly enough challenges for me. Finally, by the time I was in 9th grade -- I'd lost all interest in school because it was BORING!
I still had good grades though. My lowest grade was an A- ... not too bad.
If your daughter loves to learn and is excited about her education and enjoys the challenges of new things, I'd say go for it.
You'd be putting her on a higher path to her education. This will allow her to excel at a much faster pace and then she'll be able to enter college much younger than the traditional 18 years of age. If she's going for a 6yr or 8yr degree, it's actually better for her to be younger when completing her degree because she'll actually have a head start on the years for which she'll be able to be employed in her chosen field.
The more years she's able to be employed in her chosen field, the more financially secured she will be in her life. Women generally outlive their finances, so giving her this opportunity to change her life for the better, would (or should) be a no-brainer.
Best advice: Ask your daughter how she feels about it, and if it's something she wants to do.
My Mom did ask me, and I wanted to. But, she ultimately decided not to. The choice really is your daughter's choice to make because it's her life.
If it were my kid, I'd do it. When I was in school they wanted to skip me ahead a few grades. My Mom thought it'd be a bad idea because she was skipped ahead two grades when she was in school.
I was in 2nd grade and had an 8th grade reading level. They wanted to put me into 4th grade at the beginning of the next school year Vs 3rd grade. My Mom said "No."
Then, when I was in 5th grade, they wanted to move me ahead to 7th grade because I was smart enough. Again, my Mom said "No."
Result: I was bored to tears in school. There weren't nearly enough challenges for me. Finally, by the time I was in 9th grade -- I'd lost all interest in school because it was BORING!
I still had good grades though. My lowest grade was an A- ... not too bad.
If your daughter loves to learn and is excited about her education and enjoys the challenges of new things, I'd say go for it.
You'd be putting her on a higher path to her education. This will allow her to excel at a much faster pace and then she'll be able to enter college much younger than the traditional 18 years of age. If she's going for a 6yr or 8yr degree, it's actually better for her to be younger when completing her degree because she'll actually have a head start on the years for which she'll be able to be employed in her chosen field.
The more years she's able to be employed in her chosen field, the more financially secured she will be in her life. Women generally outlive their finances, so giving her this opportunity to change her life for the better, would (or should) be a no-brainer.
Best advice: Ask your daughter how she feels about it, and if it's something she wants to do.
My Mom did ask me, and I wanted to. But, she ultimately decided not to. The choice really is your daughter's choice to make because it's her life.
I agree with your last line.
I'm thinking there is no good solution here. Your mom, obviously, knows something you don't. She wouldn't make the same decision that was made for her for you and you would not make the decision she made for you for yourself. I'm thinking the grass is just greener on the other side of the fence.
My dd has already been grade skipped once. That was no big deal though as she only missed the cut off to have gone to kindergarten a year earlier by 24 days so she just went from being one of the oldest kids in the class to being one of the youngest but still had kids very close to her age in class. Right now, she's splitting grades so she's two years ahead in some subjects. Her choice was to stay with her friends half of the time rather than make a full grade jump. That's the choice I would have made for her. Her dad would have moved her up but he's got this whole ego thing going about her being smart.
Seriously, if she regrets this decision, she can always take summer classes and move up or just jump to the community college in 11th grade. I'm going to guess she'll wait until 12th though as she'll have more peers taking classes at the community college by then. Friendships are important to her. Maybe it's a girl thing. She didn't want to leave her friends and your mom thought you needed to stay behind. My dd is vey social.
Yeah, my Mom thought I needed to stay behind based on how things went for HER. She wasn't very social as a child and had trouble making friends. I had no trouble making friends at all. My situation was different than hers.
She had trouble fitting in, I didn't. Moving up grades would have been no problem for me. My Mom made the wrong decision, and even now, admits it was the wrong decision.
When I was in 4th grade, I had this teacher that was Black. We had a new girl come into the school, who was also Black. This girl had been in trouble lots of times, and was a very angry young girl. My teacher, put the girl in the desk right next to mine. Then after school, my Teacher stopped me and said she wanted to have a little chat.
She told me the reason she'd put the girl next to me was because if anyone could become a friend to her, it was me. I actually became BEST friends with her, and we stayed friends all throughout the rest of our school years.
When we moved just a few weeks before the end of my 4th grade school year, my Teacher, gave me her phone number at home so I could stay in touch with her. She gave me a kiss on the nose and told me I was one of the most special students she'd ever had.
I loved that woman. I actually ran into her again when I was in college. She was enrolled in some classes to keep up on current changes in teaching. She remembered me, and recognized me right off the bat. It was nice to see her.
Anyway, back to your topic after my little detour down memory lane ... as I stated, it's your daughters choice to make and it's nice to know that you agree with that. I wish my Mom would have listened to what I wanted instead of making a decision for me based on her own inability to fit in once she was advanced to a higher grade.
Why do you refuse to prove your claim? I'm guessing you can't. Having a program where it's possible is not the same as MOST COLLEGE BOUND STUDENTS GRADUATING WITH 1-2 YEARS OF COLLEGE CREDIT. I know it's possible because my daughter will do it. I never claimed it was impossible. I'm challenging your claim that MOST college bound students do this in your district. Please post the stats to support your, outlandish, claim. Posting about a program in which it is possible doesn't support your claim. It's possible where I am too, however, MOST college bound graduates will only graduate with a few college credits here. Very few will have 1-2 years of college completed when they graduate from high school. I'm guessing very few do it where you are too since you refuse to support your claims.
Given the fact you think posting about a program in which it's possible to do what you claim is proof that MOST do it, I'd question the quality of education in your area. I came out a poor district and my logical reasoning skills are better than that.
Seriously, if there were a district where MOST college bound students were completing 1-2 YEARS of college before high school graduation, I wouldn't think it was a good district. I'd think it was a bad one. So bad that most of their college bound students needed to head off to college early via dual enrollment to get out of it. A good program would be able to offer classes to their college bound students in the high school as ours does and ours isn't even a great program.
One thing you have to keep in mind is that colleges do dummy down to the quality of thier incomming student. So making, outlandish, claims about most students graduating with 1-2 years of college completed doesn't impress me. The best districts here don't send their students to college early. They don't have to. What they do is send them to college ready for college. The best districts here send 94% of their students directly to 4 year universities after graduation and the other 6% to community college. They pride themselves on offering high enough courses that they don't have to send their seniors off to college like our local schools do. The truth of the matter is, the school has nothing to offer dd after 11th grade. She will have completed their program and there aren't enough students like her in the district to warrant higher level courses so they'll send her to the community college to take college level classes.
I GAVE you the information you requested-I can't post a 'link" because they are all excel files. THe information is there, I can't help it if you can't read. Our schools are NOT sending kids to college early, they are offering opportunities to take higher level classes in HIGH SCHOOL. My daughter, who is a freshman, is on the varsity golf team. There are 3 seniors on that team. They ALL take CIS classes, College in School, but they are STILL in high school, they still go to Prom, march in the marching band, play on sports teams. Again, these classes DOUBLE COUNT for high school credit and college credits so the kids take the math, language arts, social studies and usually foreign language options that double count for both high school and college-that is 4 classes a semester for 2 years-same as 1-2 years of college credits. I don't know how else I can get you to understand this. The site I posted has ALL of this data on there, just READ IT. It breaks it down by state, school, district even so you can read it 3 different ways even. Yes, you have to do a little work by adding up the numbers, then you have to go to 2008 numbers and add those up too to come up with the number of classes these kids are taking each year. I gave you a run down of the overall numbers.
I highly doubt that places like Notre Dame, Madison, Stanford, Harvard, Yale, MIT, etc. (these are just a handful of the schools our top grads are attending) dummy down their classes. Our district sends 94% of their kids on to 4 year colleges, most districts in MN send over 90% of their kids on to 4 year colleges. These college level class offerings are part of the SCHOOL. They are a 4th level of classes kids can take to challenge themselves. Why is this so hard for you to understand???? The main benefit of these programs is to SAVE MONEY when the kids go to college.
You need to get over the fact that we have a better system then you do, period.
@golfgal, w/o having to go back through all of the pages in this thread -- can you please tell me what city/state you're in? I'd love for my son to be able to attend programs like that. We're relocating and haven't decided where at, yet.
(I'm blind and have to use a screen reader and it would take me an hour to go through this entire thread, that's why I'm just asking for the info, out right. Hope you don't mind.)
I GAVE you the information you requested-I can't post a 'link" because they are all excel files. THe information is there, I can't help it if you can't read. Our schools are NOT sending kids to college early, they are offering opportunities to take higher level classes in HIGH SCHOOL. My daughter, who is a freshman, is on the varsity golf team. There are 3 seniors on that team. They ALL take CIS classes, College in School, but they are STILL in high school, they still go to Prom, march in the marching band, play on sports teams. Again, these classes DOUBLE COUNT for high school credit and college credits so the kids take the math, language arts, social studies and usually foreign language options that double count for both high school and college-that is 4 classes a semester for 2 years-same as 1-2 years of college credits. I don't know how else I can get you to understand this. The site I posted has ALL of this data on there, just READ IT. It breaks it down by state, school, district even so you can read it 3 different ways even. Yes, you have to do a little work by adding up the numbers, then you have to go to 2008 numbers and add those up too to come up with the number of classes these kids are taking each year. I gave you a run down of the overall numbers.
I highly doubt that places like Notre Dame, Madison, Stanford, Harvard, Yale, MIT, etc. (these are just a handful of the schools our top grads are attending) dummy down their classes. Our district sends 94% of their kids on to 4 year colleges, most districts in MN send over 90% of their kids on to 4 year colleges. These college level class offerings are part of the SCHOOL. They are a 4th level of classes kids can take to challenge themselves. Why is this so hard for you to understand???? The main benefit of these programs is to SAVE MONEY when the kids go to college.
You need to get over the fact that we have a better system then you do, period.
No, you gave me a link that describes a program where this is POSSIBLE. You DID NOT prove MOST college bound students are graduating with 1-2 YEARS of college credit as you claimed. I'm not denying the program exists. I'm questioning your claims that MOST college bound students graduate with 1-2 YEARS of college completed. Please post the statistics to support this. It is YOUR responsibility to prove your claim not mine to go hunting for data to support your exaggerations in links that you provide. I didn't make the claim. You did. You owe it to everyone here to either prove the claim or admit you can't support your claim.
It's POSSIBLE to graduate with 1-2 years of college credit here. My daugther will do it. You are not unique, unless, somehow, you really are getting 46% of your students through high school with 1-2 YEARS of college credit completed but you haven't proved that outlandish claim yet. (If 90% go to 4 year colleges and MOST college bound graduate with 1-2 years of college completed you should be graduating over 45% of your students 1-2 years early from college. That should be easy to prove. As a matter of fact, it's so unique, it would be all over the press.)
You have failed to support your ludicrous claim.
Lots of places have programs that allow for college credit in high school. They have them here. Both in the high schools and via dual enrollment (which a school has depends on how close they are to a community college or university that can support a program. I've heard of online programs in conjunction with universities as well but I don't know who is and who is not using them). My district doesn't do CIS because they don't have to. My city (small) has an excellent community college that serves that purpose. Kids just take the school bus to the college campus. There is a separate high school on the college campus for students who are there all day. My dd has the option of transferring to that high school in 11th grade.
Let me spell this out for you. You will have proved your claim when you come up with data to support that over 45% of your high school graduates are graduating with 1-2 YEARS of college credit completed. It's a simple question. What does YOUR data say is the percentage of high school graduates who have completed, AT LEAST, 1 year of college credit by the time they graduate from high school through this program? If that data is in the link you posted, I couldn't find it and I shouldn't have to find it. Since you made the claim, you must know where it is. Either that or you just like to go around making unfounded exaggerated claims.
Please post a short post that gives the actual percentages of students in your state that graduate with, at least, 1 year of college completed. It's really a simple question. Yet you write verbose posts that don't answer it. You made the claim now support it. And no, your link doesn't support it from what I read. If I missed something, then cut and past the data. It's really not hard. You take the percentage of students who participate in this program and then you take the percentage of students in the program who complete, at least, 1 year of college. If you multiply the two numbers, you will have the percentage of students who grauate with, at least, one year of college completed. If this number is greater than 46% then your claim is proved. If it's less than 46%, you just lost credibility.
Please support your claims with data (and no, telling me to find it in your links is not supporting your claim. It's passing the buck and this buck belongs to you.). Plain and simple, what percentage of students from your state complete 1-2 YEARS of college credit before graduation under this program. Its a simple question. If it's under 46% (since you now claim that 90% go to college, which you also haven't proved) then your claim that MOST do it is an exaggeration at best.
Oh, and our top grads go to the same schools you mentioned. I'm sure every state sends some of their top grads to that list of schools. One of my students is headed to a school on that list, in the fall, and we're just a little charter school. One thing that has been shown to be true is that the top 10% compare favorably across the board no matter what country or system they come from. The conclusion being it's innate ability that leads to their success not the program they came out of (not that you couldn't have a program so bad you could stifle them and I'm sure it happens but when you start comparing the top 10%, they seem to hold their own). You really have to take the top 10% off to compare systems and have any valuable information. Just about anyone can make great claims about their top 10%. Cream rises to the top on its own. My dd isn't where she is because we have a great system, she's where she is because of WHO she is. The schools don't get credit for her. She would have excelled under just about any system.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 05-30-2010 at 05:23 AM..
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Maybe it's a girl thing. She didn't want to leave her friends and your mom thought you needed to stay behind. My dd is vey social.
