$600 to $800 Million Bond Issue (New MLS stadium, Downtown Arena, AAA Baseball Stadium, Zoo Expansion) (El Paso: fit in, refinance)

[Michael Di Meo]

Some of the proposal is good, some of it not.

Cons:
Tearing down the Chavez Theater, and other Civic Center infrastructure. This one is personally tough to swallow, I don´t live in ELP now, but as a child, I went there to watch recitals and concerts. It´s a striking building and many don´t realize that the present civic center is an example of citizens voting yes. That´s why it´s there in the first place. The Chavez is architectural patrimonio, and tearing it down will be a sad day. the Chavez represents old style Texas, something that has disappeared over the decades.

Tearing down a 20 year old City Hall. OK, maybe it´s a little older, but really, it reminds me of what Miami did with Bicentennial Park, they used existing city-owned property (in Miami´s case the only downtown bayside park not ruined by development) and leased it to the museum organization to tear it up and build a museum, so Miami can be ¨world class¨. Meanwhile, the only large open space left is destroyed. Tearing down a perfectly usable 30 year old city hall building, which looks kinda cool, destabilizing the government workforce, and having to come up with new space, just because the city is too corrupted to find a better solution is just a ridiculous shame.

Tearing down architectually significant historical buildings/Civic Center infrastructure. Some see dilapidated, I see beauty. Anyone ever been to Chicago? or Paris? What would happen if these cities decided to tear down their historical buildings? Imagine Chicago without the Woolworth building, because someone wanted to build a stadium there... ELP has some really nice historical buildings.

Pros
Parks need upgrading, and new parks need to be built (with public amenities like tennis courts, swimming pools, etc)
Zoo is not necessary, but if done right, it could be decent
Only bring back street cars once Juárez lightens up

I´m on the fence for the stadium thing, because downtown actually has a lot of potential for greater vibrancy, and a stadium could help, but the present plan is a corrupted cop out. I will say the new Marlins stadium has changed the neighborhood drastically in a short time (for the better), but the site was already a stadium site (old Orange Bowl).

Conclusion:
It´s a scam.
Why?
At first they wanted all or nothing... then they had to divide it up into a couple of pieces, but you still have contradictory issues fused together in all or nothing parts. Classic political manipulation of the sheeple.
Everyone knows that politicians and the businesses that work with them are the ones that will benefit the most from these deals. Then they need to sell it to the public, but instead of saying that it will enrich those at the top, they throw a few bones to the public about quality of life, ¨having to catch up with other cities¨ (to emulate them).
Who will benefit (just look at the case studies all around the world):
Politicians/Banks/Construction/Real Estate
Those earning money for tearing down and clearing out
Those who aquire land
Those who design
Those who build
Those who privately finance projects, with the expectation of optimal credit for payback
Meanwhile, all scraps will be already bought up in advance, w/out sheeple involvement or benefits, and any new growth multiplier development will be in the hands of the few.

Meanwhile the spending sheep just keep believing that they need to ¨keep up¨ with the Jones´, er... I mean other cities.

But hey, it´s just a sophisticated money-laundering scheme. Assuming more wealthy Mexicans move in, they´ll be footing part of it, and a real estate boom means higher values = higher taxes. ELP leaders are not stupid, they want a BUBBLE and will sell it to the sheep as something else. Ponzi, not really - bubble, yes.

[katzpaw]

Downtown stadium would ultimately do more harm than good:
Charles Hooten: Downtown stadium would ultimately do more harm than good - El Paso Times

I'm not against a stadium - just that we are going to throw so much away to get it. The Insights Museum will be boxed up with no funding set aside to re-open it and city hall will wind up split with 2/3rds in an old industrial building in a warehouse district. The combined new space is just over 1/2 the square footage of the current city hall and there is no council chamber.

This is the third recent example of developer blackmail at the public trough. The other two are the tax concessions for The Outlet Mall and The Fountains shopping malls.

[Ms Kitty 98]

El Paso Times columnist! former county commissioner Charles Hooten; I sort of recall Charles Hooten but not very sure if he was around during the late 1980's when Alicia Chacon droped the ball on the Aquatics Park Project. Or during the time when county commissioners ran out Western Playland from Ascarate Park, yet what did county commissioners ever do positively for El Paso? Surely Former County Judge Luther Jones presided over some decisions during Charles Hooten venture with county politics.
Charles Hooten mentions that the county won a grant from the Texas Parks and Wild Life Commission in the sum of half a million dollars to survey downtown, so where are the projects resulting from such expenditure,don't know if he served under county judge Tony Cobos?
I'm not crazy about the city destroying the Abraham Chavez Theater, they should just sell it to Billy Abraham and he'll do it for them. And the Insights Museum, I sure hope that the city finds a replacement for this downtown jewel and keep it in downtown before it ends up in Sunland Park or Alamogordo New Mexico.
As for city hall? Not even an act of congress can save this building now, the pyrotechnics of bringing it down is will be the most exciting thing to happen since Pancho Villa ate ice cream in downtown El Paso's golden years.
Downtown Stadium? YES! Quality of Life Bond Issue? YES YES!!

[Michael Di Meo]

Originally Posted by Ms Kitty 98

El Paso Times columnist! former county commissioner Charles Hooten; I sort of recall Charles Hooten but not very sure if he was around during the late 1980's when Alicia Chacon droped the ball on the Aquatics Park Project. Or during the time when county commissioners ran out Western Playland from Ascarate Park, yet what did county commissioners ever do positively for El Paso? Surely Former County Judge Luther Jones presided over some decisions during Charles Hooten venture with county politics.
Charles Hooten mentions that the county won a grant from the Texas Parks and Wild Life Commission in the sum of half a million dollars to survey downtown, so where are the projects resulting from such expenditure,don't know if he served under county judge Tony Cobos?
I'm not crazy about the city destroying the Abraham Chavez Theater, they should just sell it to Billy Abraham and he'll do it for them. And the Insights Museum, I sure hope that the city finds a replacement for this downtown jewel and keep it in downtown before it ends up in Sunland Park or Alamogordo New Mexico.
As for city hall? Not even an act of congress can save this building now, the pyrotechnics of bringing it down is will be the most exciting thing to happen since Pancho Villa ate ice cream in downtown El Paso's golden years.
Downtown Stadium? YES! Quality of Life Bond Issue? YES YES!!

I make a bet that you will financially benefit from all of this, which is why you push it so much here.
Having a yes vote will be very lucrative for you.
Be it real estate, bonuses on your lending schemes, promises from buddies on improving values downtown, your or your friends getting contracts to tear down and clear out, or your families´ construction business, you´ve got an in, meanwhile the sheeple think they are going to get ¨quality of life¨

You must have an ¨in¨ because any rational person looking at the financials knows this deal is not good at all.
A variation thereof? Certainly! But the voting deal as it stands today? Financially irresponsible, and since you don´t seem like a financial irresponsible person, you must be benefiting. It´s all logical. Why would you want to do harm to the city, unless you see $$$$$.

[mistabinks]

Even with the same information, not everyone agrees that any of this will harm the city. I'm a bigger cheerleader for all of this than Ms Kitty 98 and I don't have any vested interest in any of the projects. Sitting on the bench is a worst option (in my opinion and considering all the same information you pointed out). I can't wait!

[SA2EP?]

wynwood must be a huge conspiracy theorist...maybe you and David Rodriguez should hang out.

My votes will all be yes and the only benefit I will receive is getting to enjoy a better El Paso!

[caiguar]

"The worst kind of venture is the one that is never attempted" I will vote yes on everything too, and I'm planning to record the demo of city hall, as this will mean we are starting a better future here, and something I can leave my children with. I love my city, I have lived in other places. I have decided this is where I want to live and if its going to cost me more to leave my children in a better place, so be it. I don't want to live with the mentality of the past couple of decades that we are not going to spend money on anything and see kids leave as soon as they learn to walk, we need to WORK for a better city and this will be a good start.

[Ms Kitty 98]

Originally Posted by Wynwood

I make a bet that you will financially benefit from all of this, which is why you push it so much here.
Having a yes vote will be very lucrative for you.
Be it real estate, bonuses on your lending schemes, promises from buddies on improving values downtown, your or your friends getting contracts to tear down and clear out, or your families´ construction business, you´ve got an in, meanwhile the sheeple think they are going to get ¨quality of life¨

You must have an ¨in¨ because any rational person looking at the financials knows this deal is not good at all.
A variation thereof? Certainly! But the voting deal as it stands today? Financially irresponsible, and since you don´t seem like a financial irresponsible person, you must be benefiting. It´s all logical. Why would you want to do harm to the city, unless you see $$$$$.

How will I benefit financially from all this? where am I pushing anything other than being one El Paso citizen that will be voting yes on the quality of life bond issue? I really don't have any idea where you came up with such over blown assertions that I am personally involved with contracts, construction business, you are barking up the wrong tree Wynwood. I really didn't like the idea of city hall being knocked down, but that is not my choice, but I do support the stadium being built. I even had thought that the city could built it in a better location, but nobody here on this message board seems to know what I am talking about, so I just let it go.What harm am I doing to the city? If I was a naysayer then I would be foolish and ignorant for wanting to keep El Paso looking like a dump. I want change and I want to support progress that this city has never seen since the arrival of railroads back in 1881.I want to attend baseball games in downtown not at Cohen stadium, I want to go see an El Paso triple AAA baseball team that has MLB affiliation not some independent
baseball team that only God knows where they come from and they have nothing going for them.
I want change I want El Paso to change, the little it has changed since I've been gone is not good enough.

[Chuco]

“Without continual growth and progress, such words as improvement, achievement, and success have no meaning.”

"When you're finished changing, you're finished."
- Benjamin Franklin

IMO, its time to start changing again and take some chances. We have tried not changing for years and in a big way it has finished us, its time for El Paso to progress once again. Ben Franklin knew what he was talking about, and it looks almost as if he was speaking directly to us when he spoke those clever words many years ago.

If you want El Paso to stay behind and never even have the chance to prosper, then vote no on the bonds and hotel tax. If you want some major changes in El Paso and at least want to give us a fighting chance at becoming a modern city that people love to go to and not leave in a hurry, then vote YES for the bonds to pass and vote YES for the hotel tax.

[SWSIDLO]

I'll vote yes and my only interest id a better El Paso! Sometimes it takes money to make money or in this case improvements to the downtown and such.
JMHO