U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Elections
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Are You Better Off Than You Were Four Years Ago?
YES 50 52.08%
NO 46 47.92%
Voters: 96. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-04-2012, 01:12 PM
 
12,794 posts, read 7,109,945 times
Reputation: 4326

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimar View Post
1. No one minimized your hard work, Mr. "I can make money in the Stone Age." You'd probably need thicker skin to live in the Stone Age as well. You sound like you just want someone who tells you what you want to hear, and you're not being specific about what these terribly offensive statements are, so I don't know what you're thinking. I don't actually care much about the posturing on either side, because that's what it is, posturing. If it doesn't impress you, don't pay attention to it. I wonder how bothered you were when 4 years ago Sarah Palin was going on and on about "real" Americans as if somehow the rest of us are "fake" Americans.

2. Be careful what you wish for. You think suddenly things will magically correct themselves if the government backs off? Do you think a minimalist government sounds bad to me? If I thought it would be realistic, yeah, I think keeping government out of everything would be fine. What happens in other countries when the government backs off of social services? In Egypt, the government went from quasi-socialist to "pro-business" and what happened? The Muslim Brotherhood started providing the poor with the things the government stopped providing, like additional food, healthcare, and education. And we know what happened after that. THEY BECAME the government.

3. Every successful country in the world has government involvement in healthcare and education. That IS a basic. What laissez-faire country are you thinking of that does nothing while their citizens innovate out in the wilderness on their own (hint: America is NOT one of them)? The Republican/Libertarian ideas on infrastructure and foreign policy, what little ideas they have, are terribly outdated and arguably dangerous.
I'll start off by saying this has gone way off topic, so if I was a mod on this site I'd probably delete our comments from the thread.

1. The specifics: "If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen." And yes, "someone along the line gave you some help" thats probably true of most people. But to spin it as some political argument to create a false class warfare argument is despicable. My mom, my dad, my family, my teachers, my friends helped me...they didn't do it for political gain which is all his speech was designed for when he said all of that. I also love how everything goes back to this assumption that if people disagree with you, then they must agree with the other side. I've always thought that both Palin and Obama were the same in the sense that they didn't deserve to be anywhere near 1300 Pennsylvania Avenue....neither was / is qualified for the job.

2. I want the Federal government to back off of things like education, there are many experts who point to the governments involvement as the direct cause of the problems we have with them now. So much money is wasted in the simple transfer...when you send $1 to the Federal Government from your paycheck it gets nowhere near that much value in return by the time it makes it back to your state or wherever it was intended to be spent.

3. Im glad you mention that "every successful country in the world has government involvement in healthcare and education" because the problem with that is that the top countries in both education and healthcare spend less per person on it, and get far better results...and that my friend is my exact problem. We are doing it all wrong, and its costing us a fortune.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-04-2012, 01:26 PM
 
1,698 posts, read 1,667,584 times
Reputation: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by t206 View Post
I'll start off by saying this has gone way off topic, so if I was a mod on this site I'd probably delete our comments from the thread.

1. The specifics: "If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen." And yes, "someone along the line gave you some help" thats probably true of most people. But to spin it as some political argument to create a false class warfare argument is despicable. My mom, my dad, my family, my teachers, my friends helped me...they didn't do it for political gain which is all his speech was designed for when he said all of that. I also love how everything goes back to this assumption that if people disagree with you, then they must agree with the other side. I've always thought that both Palin and Obama were the same in the sense that they didn't deserve to be anywhere near 1300 Pennsylvania Avenue....neither was / is qualified for the job.

2. I want the Federal government to back off of things like education, there are many experts who point to the governments involvement as the direct cause of the problems we have with them now. So much money is wasted in the simple transfer...when you send $1 to the Federal Government from your paycheck it gets nowhere near that much value in return by the time it makes it back to your state or wherever it was intended to be spent.

3. Im glad you mention that "every successful country in the world has government involvement in healthcare and education" because the problem with that is that the top countries in both education and healthcare spend less per person on it, and get far better results...and that my friend is my exact problem. We are doing it all wrong, and its costing us a fortune.
I don't think this is off topic at all. These issues are directly related to government performance and our perceptions of them.

The "you didn't build that" quote- has been taken totally out of context over and over and over again. I know that you know that, but you are basically choosing to be offended by something that was not said. I don't know how seriously I can take your feelings on that.

You are all over the place. Do you want the government involved in healthcare and education or not? Do you want the government to attempt to tackle these issues or not even try? With laws like Obamacare, if both sides were doing their jobs, and they're not, the law would be revised and edited every year to take out what's not working but keep what is. But do you think that's going to be a possibility after the National Freak Out we had? I took a class on government involvement in healthcare, and the professor, who was Australian, was totally confused by the American attitude on government involvement. In some countries, it is a given that the government is going to be involved, so they do not waste years and years going back and forth on whether the government needs to be involved, they JUST FIX THE PROBLEM. Things like school vouchers and Medicare vouchers are not solutions, they are just diversions to keep us focused on whether or not the government needs to be involved, meanwhile, the actual problems do not get fixed.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2012, 01:37 PM
 
12,794 posts, read 7,109,945 times
Reputation: 4326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimar View Post
I don't think this is off topic at all. These issues are directly related to government performance and our perceptions of them.

The "you didn't build that" quote- has been taken totally out of context over and over and over again. I know that you know that, but you are basically choosing to be offended by something that was not said. I don't know how seriously I can take your feelings on that.

You are all over the place. Do you want the government involved in healthcare and education or not? Do you want the government to attempt to tackle these issues or not even try? With laws like Obamacare, if both sides were doing their jobs, and they're not, the law would be revised and edited every year to take out what's not working but keep what is. But do you think that's going to be a possibility after the National Freak Out we had? I took a class on government involvement in healthcare, and the professor, who was Australian, was totally confused by the American attitude on government involvement. In some countries, it is a given that the government is going to be involved, so they do not waste years and years going back and forth on whether the government needs to be involved, they JUST FIX THE PROBLEM. Things like school vouchers and Medicare vouchers are not solutions, they are just diversions to keep us focused on whether or not the government needs to be involved, meanwhile, the actual problems do not get fixed.
I don't care if you "dont take me seriously" based on my opinion on his quote and if it was/wasn't taken out of context. I think it was slightly blown out of proportion, however I do think there is a certain amount of truth that he sees in it and I am completely opposite in my opinions when it comes to that.

I'm definitely not all over the place. The Federal Government has no business in healthcare and education. Period. Keeping tax money local and you will get significantly better and more efficient results. Now that is not to say I think the state governments should run health care, but I do think that the federal government being involved has caused some of the grossly distorted inflation that you see in medical costs.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2012, 02:20 PM
 
21,908 posts, read 11,588,163 times
Reputation: 10748
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida.bob View Post
Banks and Wall Street fully recovered, large Business making record profits, Stock market up 100% ... people who are waiting for the phony "trickle down" are still in an economic bind. Those millions who have found work, thanks to Obama policies(AKA Not Trickle Down), are better off, the millions more who have not found work, are not better off. If we can get the Tnuts out of Congress and break Norquist stranglehold on GOP re. taxes. Common sense could win the day. Bills that acually would put people to work could be passed.
Banks fully recovered? How often do you read financial news?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2012, 02:22 PM
 
21,908 posts, read 11,588,163 times
Reputation: 10748
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
The stock market has nearly doubled since Obama took office. That's an indisputable fact.

The stock market was setting records under Hoover....for a time.

The stock market is a poor indicator of overall financial stability.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2012, 02:24 PM
 
1,698 posts, read 1,667,584 times
Reputation: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by t206 View Post
I don't care if you "dont take me seriously" based on my opinion on his quote and if it was/wasn't taken out of context. I think it was slightly blown out of proportion, however I do think there is a certain amount of truth that he sees in it and I am completely opposite in my opinions when it comes to that.

I'm definitely not all over the place. The Federal Government has no business in healthcare and education. Period. Keeping tax money local and you will get significantly better and more efficient results. Now that is not to say I think the state governments should run health care, but I do think that the federal government being involved has caused some of the grossly distorted inflation that you see in medical costs.
I think you do care if I take you seriously, because you keep responding to my posts and we are engaged in a discussion and when you are discussing things with someone you generally want them to take you seriously. Obviously this is a rare event on here on citydata.

So, when foreign governments set standards for healthcare and education on the federal level, they're doing a good job because they're spending less, but we have to do it on the local level? I don't think keeping tax money local will always get better results. I have never seen any evidence of that, there are just as many, if not more, schmucks in local government as there are in the federal government. If you have some data or evidence or something I'll take that back but I don't know what you are basing that assertion on. I went to school in 2 different states and I have to say the standards were radically different and not in a good way. I live in Montgomery County MD and from what I've seen of the school standards here, now that I have my own child, they are holding students and families to a much higher level. Obviously there are discrete issues where the local government should be in charge, but it is definitely not quite that simple. Like I said, there is so much political capital and precious time wasted on these ideas that the government should not be involved in this or that, or that the local government is superior to the state government or the feds or something- I think these are all red herring issues from people who would like to keep the status quo, or who would like to tweak the status quo to their advantage.

Last edited by Zimar; 09-04-2012 at 02:46 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2012, 02:34 PM
 
1,230 posts, read 966,740 times
Reputation: 471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimar View Post
I think it is so sad that you take what we have so for granted. Have you ever lived in a truly dysfunctional country? I have. It might seem so darn basic to have reasonable roads and sidewalks, but there are actually places in this world where it can't be managed. What if every storefront had to build their own sidewalk, but instead of being uniform, each store placed the sidewalk at a different height, used different materials, built the sidewalk at a different width, put planters in different locations, had no ramps for the disabled, and did not maintain their sidewalk so in front of certain stores it eventually crumbled? There are places like this. Have you ever had to apply for a driver's license or passport, but had to include a $20 bribe with your papers? Have you ever been to a country where water from poor neighborhoods was diverted to a golf course's sprinklers, so that the poor only got 2 or 3 hours of water per day? Have you been to a place where millions of poor children live on the street, selling flowers and tissues in the hot sun all day?

NOTHING comes easy, nothing. It took a lot of people, making a herculean effort, so that you can sit in your air-conditioned house typing away at the computer your complaints about how the infrastructure of this country was "put in place decades ago" and imagining insults against entrepreneurs that never even happened. Everything you have is SO VALUABLE, and you feel like it is nothing. I would hate to be like that.
Great post. I guess I recently repped you, so can't give you rep for this one.

Yes, there is much to be done to bring back the middle class and elevate the poor (jobs, home values, etc), but sometimes those with the least to complain about in the REALITY of their personal situation, complain the loudest.

I use a coffee mug with a graphic of Lucy of "Peanuts" on it. She has a big black hole of a mouth...Waaaaaaaaaah It makes me smile and remember that I really have nothing to whine about. It reminds me to laugh at my petty, ungrateful self. Compared to 99% of this world, I am in the 1% on a very modest retirement income. I was lucky to be born here in the lower middle class and, even in these tough times, remain lucky to be here in America.

As a retired RN who saved as much as I could, as well as paid into SS and Medicare for over 43 years, I would hate to see SS and Medicare go away for our future generations. I can't tell you how crucial it is for those of modest means who "played by the rules" and "worked hard" but were unable to save up a million dollars. For those who think that everyone can, or should be able to, retire as a millionaire - you are just plain wrong and out of touch with reality.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2012, 02:53 PM
 
12,794 posts, read 7,109,945 times
Reputation: 4326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimar View Post
I think you do care if I take you seriously, because you keep responding to my posts and we are engaged in a discussion and when you are discussing things with someone you generally want them to take you seriously. Obviously this is a rare event on here on citydata.

So, when foreign governments set standards for healthcare and education on the federal level, they're doing a good job because they're spending less, but we have to do it on the local level? I don't think keeping tax money local will always get better results. I have never seen any evidence of that, there are just as many, if not more, schmucks in local government as there are in the federal government. If you have some data or evidence or something I'll take that back but I don't know what you are basing that assertion on. I went to school in 2 different states and I have to say the standards were radically different and not in a good way. I live in Montgomery County MD and from what I've seen of the school standards here, now that I have my own child, they are holding students and families to a much higher level. Obviously there are discrete issues where the local government should be in charge, but it is definitely not quite that simple. Like I said, there is so much political capital and precious time wasted on these ideas that the government should not be involved in this or that, or that the local government is superior to the state government- I think these are all red herring issues from people who would like to keep the status quo, or who would like to tweak the status quo to their advantage.
Dont take this personally, but I don't care about your opinion of me. I'll debate the issue, but I truly do not care what you think of me is all I'm saying.

The problem with comparing foreign countries and their standards is that them doing it as a country is more on par with us doing it by state when you look at the population and even geographic size. I mean France and Italy do fairly well if you look at them, but they are pretty much the equivalent of 2-3 of our largest states lumped together when it comes to size and population. The US is way too big to try and manage healthcare for everyone from the tiny confines of DC. Same goes with education.

Besides the obvious complexity of doing it for a country like Italy (population of ~60M and 116K sq miles) vs. the US (population of ~310M and 3.9M sq. miles) there are also the huge differences in health issues, with the US having a higher rate of people with heart disease and we just generally don't take care of ourselves as well as people in the other "better performing" countries. Also, I'm sure you are well aware of these same countries with great health care having significant issues with their governments financial stability...examples like Italy, France, Spain, and Greece. It does not seem sustainable.

Just because you disagree with me politically, there is no need to paint it as me being selfish, uninformed, or oblivious. We have different views on how to best address the situation, and I have not called you dumb or selfish for disagreeing with me, so I'd appreciate that you left those implications off the table as they do not add to the debate.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2012, 03:00 PM
 
Location: Pluto's Home Town
9,986 posts, read 12,692,752 times
Reputation: 5659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimar View Post
I think it is so sad that you take what we have so for granted. Have you ever lived in a truly dysfunctional country? I have. It might seem so darn basic to have reasonable roads and sidewalks, but there are actually places in this world where it can't be managed. What if every storefront had to build their own sidewalk, but instead of being uniform, each store placed the sidewalk at a different height, used different materials, built the sidewalk at a different width, put planters in different locations, had no ramps for the disabled, and did not maintain their sidewalk so in front of certain stores it eventually crumbled? There are places like this. Have you ever had to apply for a driver's license or passport, but had to include a $20 bribe with your papers? Have you ever been to a country where water from poor neighborhoods was diverted to a golf course's sprinklers, so that the poor only got 2 or 3 hours of water per day? Have you been to a place where millions of poor children live on the street, selling flowers and tissues in the hot sun all day?

NOTHING comes easy, nothing. It took a lot of people, making a herculean effort, so that you can sit in your air-conditioned house typing away at the computer your complaints about how the infrastructure of this country was "put in place decades ago" and imagining insults against entrepreneurs that never even happened. Everything you have is SO VALUABLE, and you feel like it is nothing. I would hate to be like that.
Terrific post Zimar. You see, most of the most convervative posters here have never been out of their state little on having lived in another country. The infrastructure and investment that we enjoy in the USA is truly outstanding, but conservatives would like to move us closer to say, Somalia or Mexico, where there is either poor infrastructure, mafia rule, or both.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-04-2012, 03:17 PM
 
12,794 posts, read 7,109,945 times
Reputation: 4326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddlehead View Post
Terrific post Zimar. You see, most of the most convervative posters here have never been out of their state little on having lived in another country. The infrastructure and investment that we enjoy in the USA is truly outstanding, but conservatives would like to move us closer to say, Somalia or Mexico, where there is either poor infrastructure, mafia rule, or both.
Again, instead of belittling the possible education, experience, or other qualities of the person making the argument, try addressing the actual issue. Personal attacks against those that have different (yet still well educated) views as you do nothing to advance your point of view.

I will tell you I've traveled in at least one place outside of the US where I was in fear for my life because of the horrible infrastructure and there are places right here at home that have the potential to be just as bad. Did you know that according to a recent study, the Tappan Zee bridge in NY is one structural failure away from the entire thing coming down? Its one of the most heavily trafficed bridges in the country. Its a horrible safety issue, and it is a great example of why I find our tax situation so troublesome. We built something great, and have not done whats required to support (literally) it. I'd just love to see the government focus on the core competencies that are not feasible for the private sector to "own" or deal with, and let the private sector go on with dealing with what we need to deal with, and with limited government tampering. And by limited I dont mean "no rule of law" as people like to conjecture to make drastic claims. Personally I strongly believe that we are too good at introducing new rules and regulations and we neglect to enforce the most basic ones.

Last edited by t206; 09-04-2012 at 03:40 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Elections

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2021, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top