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Old 09-20-2012, 10:05 AM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,960,751 times
Reputation: 2618

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
So your argument is that the flag shouldn't be referenced in any advertising or marketing imagery? Because such references do not protect, revere or respect the symbolism?
Not exactly, personally I see nothing wrong with people using the symbolism (stars, stripes and colors), but I have a problem with them using only parts (omitting and replacing) in such.

I already explained this to you. In the case of the examples between your images. While both are not direct representations of the flag, and both use basic forms of it, only one uses ALL of the symbols to achieve it.

The obama example uses the colors and the stripes, but replaces the stars with its symbol (which contains no stars). If the Obama symbol had some stars in it, or if it was an overlay over the stars, at least it would hold to the conditions of my premise (ie, it contains all elements of the basic core symbolism). It does not, so it omits one important core aspect of the symbolism.

The Romney example you gave contained Stars, Stripes, and colors. All of the core elements are there.

that is my premise and the logic of my argument is sound. Now if you go through and read the others who responded to me, I said I had issues with ALL examples which "omitted or replaced" the core elements regardless of their political affiliation.

That has been my argument from the start. You however changed my argument and were arguing a straw man to victory of a position I never held.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:08 AM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,960,751 times
Reputation: 2618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
Hmm...



Or...



A corporate logo smack dab in the middle of the flag. Yeah, that's respectful.

Stars, Stripes, Colors. According to my premise, they at least contain all of the core symbolism.

The republicans have some that don't and I object to those just as much as I do the Obama one.

The Fox one is poor taste though. The omission of stars is a problem in the symbolism.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:09 AM
 
32,516 posts, read 37,206,891 times
Reputation: 32581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
What is your point?
You need me to explain my point?

OK. My point is a lot of groups change the American flag for a lot of reasons and purposes. One group is the United States Marine Corps. I told you to complain to them if you don't like what they did. (Because I highly doubt the Commandant of the Marine Corps is reading your posts.)

Personally, I wouldn't mess with a U.S. Marine but if you want to, please let me know when because I'd love to see the results.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:10 AM
 
46,979 posts, read 26,033,054 times
Reputation: 29467
Quote:
Originally Posted by KUchief25 View Post
Wow look at the obamabots swarm like mad to this thread defending dear leader.
Your side says something stupid - we get to point and laugh. It's the circle of life or somesuch.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:14 AM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,905,737 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
Not exactly, personally I see nothing wrong with people using the symbolism (stars, stripes and colors), but I have a problem with them using only parts (omitting and replacing) in such.

I already explained this to you. In the case of the examples between your images. While both are not direct representations of the flag, and both use basic forms of it, only one uses ALL of the symbols to achieve it.

The obama example uses the colors and the stripes, but replaces the stars with its symbol (which contains no stars). If the Obama symbol had some stars in it, or if it was an overlay over the stars, at least it would hold to the conditions of my premise (ie, it contains all elements of the basic core symbolism). It does not, so it omits one important core aspect of the symbolism.

The Romney example you gave contained Stars, Stripes, and colors. All of the core elements are there.

that is my premise and the logic of my argument is sound. Now if you go through and read the others who responded to me, I said I had issues with ALL examples which "omitted or replaced" the core elements regardless of their political affiliation.

That has been my argument from the start. You however changed my argument and were arguing a straw man to victory of a position I never held.
I didn't change your argument. I disagree with your argument. Why? Because I think the three-star is a symbol in and of itself, and I think the Obama logo is a symbol in and of itself. Both campaigns have replaced the field of stars with symbols that are completely different references than the field of stars. And I think it's arbitrary to favor one of those symbols over the other according to the argument you are making.

And you are the one who keeps on trying to insult me by calling me "Saul".
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:17 AM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,960,751 times
Reputation: 2618
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
You need me to explain my point?

OK. My point is a lot of groups change the American flag for a lot of reasons and purposes. One group is the United States Marine Corps. I told you to complain to them if you don't like what they did. (Because I highly doubt the Commandant of the Marine Corps is reading your posts.)

Personally, I wouldn't mess with a U.S. Marine but if you want to, please let me know when because I'd love to see the results.

Why would I try to change them? Why would I be so arrogant to think that my objection to such should be changed? Sorry, but I am not like a large percentage of Americans that think that because I have an opinion, it should be legislated as force on those I disagree with. That would be contrary to the entire concept of our countries design, and it kind of fits in with the basic point I was making.

We have so little respect for liberty these days, so why would it be a surprise that the basic components to which the flag represents such would be disregard and adjusted concerning its symbolism? If the actual thing isn't respected, then naturally the symbolism we see every day will also reflect such.

I gave my personal opinion, that is it. Now based on some of the volume and somewhat volatile responses concerning my opinion, it appears our nation has gone so far away from freedom that people are afraid that a differing opinion is offensive and should be attacked and demonized. Maybe it is because we no longer respect liberties and freedom that we fear such differing opinions? Maybe it is because we are ruled now by politicians who placate to the mob majority that people now fear such because it could mean that if such ideas become a majority, it will be used to oppress the minority? We don't respect individual liberty, so I guess mob control is all that is left to protect ones interest. /shrug
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:23 AM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,960,751 times
Reputation: 2618
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
I didn't change your argument. I disagree with your argument. Why? Because I think the three-star is a symbol in and of itself, and I think the Obama logo is a symbol in and of itself. Both campaigns have replaced the field of stars with symbols that are completely different references than the field of stars. And I think it's arbitrary to favor one of those symbols over the other according to the argument you are making.

And you are the one who keeps on trying to insult me by calling me "Saul".

That changes my premise DC. My premise is simply that the core symbols are present. My premise is valid.

You argue the "type, number, and placement" of the elements which were not the premise of my argument.

The argument you are making is irrelevant to the basic premise of my argument. I am not objecting to the number, type, etc... My conditions are met, my argument is valid and consistent in my evaluation. /shrug

We are discussing a subjective argument that uses objective parameters. My premise is consistently conclusive to my evaluation and therefore a valid argument.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Out in the Badlands
10,420 posts, read 10,837,738 times
Reputation: 7801
Quote:
Originally Posted by sol11 View Post
The American Flag has been redesigned to show that the states are no longer relevant. The stars representing the states has now been replaced by the Obama logo.

Does the arrogance of this egomaniac have no bounds?

Obama Campaign Redesigns American Flag | FOX News & Commentary: Todd Starnes
In a word NO!
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:31 AM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,905,737 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
That changes my premise DC. My premise is simply that the core symbols are present. My premise is valid.

You argue the "type, number, and placement" of the elements which were not the premise of my argument.

The argument you are making is irrelevant to the basic premise of my argument. I am not objecting to the number, type, etc... My conditions are met, my argument is valid and consistent in my evaluation. /shrug

We are discussing a subjective argument that uses objective parameters. My premise is consistently conclusive to my evaluation and therefore a valid argument.
Since we are having a subjective argument, my premise is consistently conclusive to my evaluation and therefore also a valid argument.

I couldn't care less about the "type, number and placement" of the elements.

In both examples, the field of stars has been replaced by a symbol that has no relationship to the field of stars. Your argument that because one symbol still includes stars, it's okay, is nonsensical. Because you are arguing that the symbolism is the point. If the symbolism is the point, then you would concur that the field of stars references the individual states. The three-star symbol doesn't reference the individual states at all. It's a completely different symbol that has taken the place of the field of stars. So any resemblance between the two symbols is a matter of coincidence, not a referential matter. And a preference for the three-star symbol over the Obama symbol is a preference based on a coincidence, which is illogical.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:43 AM
 
32,516 posts, read 37,206,891 times
Reputation: 32581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
Why would I try to change them? Why would I be so arrogant to think that my objection to such should be changed?
Dude! You are quoting me and responding to someone else.

Either that or you are not comprehending the posts. One or the other. Could very well be both.

Whatever. You've made your point. You don't like the American populace because they have opinions that aren't yours.
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