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Old 08-22-2016, 05:24 AM
 
Location: Kansas
25,948 posts, read 22,102,658 times
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My only thought is that if Kaine were a half decent guy, he would not have agreed to be Hillary's running mate. I do suppose with her health, the idea of becoming POTUS within the next 4 years was a big draw.

I do think his Spanish and the fact that he wouldn't be giving up a seat in Congress, like other possible choices, where a Republican would be replacing a Democrat had a lot to do with it. Although, as we know, many would not want an association with the Clintons so it may have been slim pickins'!

Oops! One of things that shows he has similar ethics to Clinton: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tim-kain...s-as-governor/
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Old 08-22-2016, 06:07 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC
4,320 posts, read 5,136,503 times
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Tim Kaine has been great for Virginia. I expect him to be the next major target for Fox News/right-wing media. Kaine could/should be in poll position for 2020 or 2024 and right-wing media will be sure to attack his character every day beginning next year.

All the most prominent Dems are subjected to character assassination by these completely partisan sources.
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Old 08-22-2016, 06:12 AM
 
11,755 posts, read 7,113,070 times
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He is way more qualified and smarter than either of the candidates and is a good, honorable guy to boot, though he is not exactly electric.

You won't see me complaining if Hillary steps down for whatever reason after the beatdown she administers on November 8th.

Mick
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Old 08-22-2016, 06:13 AM
 
Location: Ft. Myers
19,719 posts, read 16,833,054 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnywhereElse View Post
My only thought is that if Kaine were a half decent guy, he would not have agreed to be Hillary's running mate. I do suppose with her health, the idea of becoming POTUS within the next 4 years was a big draw.

I do think his Spanish and the fact that he wouldn't be giving up a seat in Congress, like other possible choices, where a Republican would be replacing a Democrat had a lot to do with it. Although, as we know, many would not want an association with the Clintons so it may have been slim pickins'!

Oops! One of things that shows he has similar ethics to Clinton: Tim Kaine accepted $160K in gifts as governor - CBS News

Why do you say that ? What makes him indecent by choosing this position ? Just because you don't care for Hillary, should everyone else in the world think just the same way?

As for "slim pickins'" don't fool yourself, people would have been lined up to take this position. Again, just because you feel this way............


Don
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Old 08-22-2016, 07:45 PM
 
2,411 posts, read 1,974,456 times
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It really is too bad we can't seem to have a conversation about the qualities that make a good president (or vice president) without people getting into silly sidebars or diverting to the 'issues' that divide us. I really think qualifying for the office should be about more than just 'issues'.


I personally would like to see a President (as well as VP) who does their best to unite us rather than divide us. One who shows respect for the office and the people of the United States (yes, respect for people in general around the world, but, first for the country he/she is elected to 'lead').


I don't care where they were educated - that really doesn't matter .. and should NOT matter. I do care that they are literate (and honestly can do more than just read a teleprompter speech someone else most likely wrote). The President is not more important than the people - he/she is human too ... we have a level playing field there so a little humility would be nice from them from time to time.


I care that they come across as truly caring and sincere - and I should never detect insincerity when they speak or in their actions. Once bitten, twice shy - that's me - lie to me and I am not that likely to trust you the next time - and there is very rarely a situation in which a lie is absolutely essential. Keep the politics to the DC political arena - with us, be as honest and open as possible (but don't just give us stuff about 'transparency' when you can't and don't even mean it). Just tell us what you can and gain our trust that you will act properly if push comes to shove, even if you can't tell us about that till after the fact.


I care that someone running for these positions makes well-considered decisions, that they have strong convictions perhaps but are also able to turn on a dime if need be when things get out of hand - at home or abroad. I care very much who they surround themselves with - that tells me a lot about them too. Actually I don't think being a 'leader' is as important as displaying the qualities needed to lead or step into that role if need be. If you can't deliver - just tell us that and why not. Don't cover up. Don't avoid. Just admit it. Show us you gave it a darned good try and that whatever it is was important enough to the people to make it worth the time you spent on it.


We are electing a CEO here. Essentially that is the position - and we are the HR department in essence. And we pay the salary so we need to select candidates worthy of that remuneration.


I think discussing the issues ad infinitum just leads us astray - although of course what 'promises' are made by a candidate need to be vetted to see if they might even be possible to deliver on given all the variables and context in which that has to happen.


So being for or against the TPP for instance should come with a rationale as to why that is - not just a statement - and why that is good (or not) for the American people as a whole. And don't just promise 'jobs' - because government can only create an environment in which jobs are created (with the minor exception of adding even more government jobs, most of which, they better darned well justify because most don't seem either necessary or prudent) - they can't 'create jobs' unless it is 'pay for play' maybe! It's our buck - not the President's dollar, or Congress's either. If a candidate tells me that he/she will create jobs .. that the government will create jobs .. this lady will look for another candidate. But, if you tell me how you can create the environment in which Americans will create their own jobs, I will listen with interest - as you tell me how. I want candidates to read the public as well as act only politically according to some pat agenda. If you can do that, I don't give a hoot what 'party' you belong to - you are the right person for the job!


A candidate's promises should match their skills/ability to deliver as much as practically foreseeable. I want to see vision (and obvious understanding of issues) but I also want to see evidence they can relax things/tweak things in the moment as necessary. At times I want them to show innovation in their approach to problem solving.


I want to select for integrity, intelligence (again, that doesn't mean education) and the ability to inspire us all and unite us all. I want to know too that our leader can handle stress well, is self-confident (but not too narcissistic), and doesn't exhibit selfish behaviour (except as warranted .. such as .. darn it, I need a weekend off so I can be a good leader on Monday - yes, I can be interrupted but only if it is a major emergency and then you darned well better interrupt me!). It is a 24 hour a day job - many of us have worked those .. always on call if not at the office. It is tough, day in and day out for years at a time .. I expect to see them pace themselves (but, please .. find another hobby besides golf or bimbos .. boring! )


So I am gathering that people seem to think that Kaine is level headed for the most part. He says he is boring .. neither here nor there to me (although it would be nice if he could speak inspiringly or empathetically or whatever is required for the occasion should he ever have to address the public on a very serious matter). He does need to be able to convey a clear message to the people and gain their trust if he has to handle some crucial problem. I gather too that many feel he did an ok job in VA. I guess he didn't get arrested or indicted so these days that is something I guess. A true spark or passion would be nice, but, I will take boring and pedantic over theatricality or lies any day. Personality shouldn't really be a factor in deciding if a person would make a good president (as the primary candidate or backup) - as long as they aren't too out there in any one direction. I don't think he is a micromanager - micromanagement is not good thing at that level I believe. I like that people think he is law-abiding, even if he doesn't particularly like any given law.


So far so good I guess. I suspect Pence has similar qualities - but am still digging into that.


(and yes, I already know that I am 'naive' if I think we could ever get back to where we should be, where the Founding Fathers intended us to be, when it comes to elections .. but one can hope small steps can be made.)

Last edited by Aery11; 08-22-2016 at 07:56 PM..
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Old 08-22-2016, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Florida
33,568 posts, read 18,152,594 times
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Kaine isn't even liked in his home state.
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Old 08-23-2016, 03:38 AM
 
Location: SoCal
20,160 posts, read 12,753,835 times
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I like both of the VP candidates then the presidential candidates. But I have never like Biden. So if this Kaine is like Biden, then maybe I don't like him as much as I thought.
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Old 08-23-2016, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Hiding from Antifa!
7,783 posts, read 6,082,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
I don't even understand the concept of being anti-LGBT .. because it seems to me that means someone is anti-people. Do hope that isn't the case with Pence. Goes to show you how dumb I must be I suppose.


I was going to do this in two different threads .. should we just make it a combined 'vice presidential' discussion thread? Not sure if I can change the subject heading but maybe a mod can?
Anti LGBT is comparable to saying those who favor abortions are anti-life because they are against pro-lifers. It is merely twisting words to make someone look bad.
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Old 08-23-2016, 10:25 AM
 
2,411 posts, read 1,974,456 times
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Ok .. I have done some more research on both Kaine and Pence.


I should preface this though by saying I am much more 'moderate' (leaning 'right-ish' I guess) than it seems most are in America today. Polarization is a big problem in America (spurred on by the media) - and I can certainly see how that influences the selection of a president/vp particularly these days. It doesn't help the American people at all to be so divided.


In general, from what I have read and heard so far - I think I would be happier with Kaine as president than Hillary. However .. and it is a big however .. from what I can see Kaine went awry when he became head of the DNC for a time and then moved from the governorship of VA to Congress. Major shift to the left happened then. To me it seems he was obviously 'bought out' at that point though occasionally one still sees glimmers of more moderate views. And he has been described a 'micro-manager' in a Politico article I read. Not a big plus for me.


Both these VP candidates are lawyers too - not necessarily a good thing (though I come from a family of really honest lawyers - I know too much there perhaps) but even worse is that Harvard is Kaine's alma mater .. old boy's club? I can see why he changed apparently radically when he began to make the shift to the DC ranks. But .. both worked in their fields for a significant number of years before getting there too .. so they do have a bit of real life experience as well - which is more than many in Congress.


But, for the most part, Kaine seems to have done a reasonably decent job as a governor. He used to be able to innovate and compromise (as evidenced by something relatively minor but still significant - his solution to the clamour to remove Robert E Lee from a mural - he managed to change the placement, keep Lee in the 'picture' and still make everyone happy). Can and will he still do that now though? I suspect he has it in him but I am not sure he will ever be that person he was back before they 'got to him'. I can definitely now see what someone in this thread wrote earlier - that he is touted as a moderate but he is definitely a 'liberal' - because I have now seen where that shift happened.


Pence - I would probably be much less happy with Pence as President. I would much rather see Trump in that position - though Pence may make an adequate VP. He 'goes along to get along' far too often from what I can tell, and is really influenced by 'networking' but that belies the fact that he is 'cunning'. He is a consummate 'politician' (and I am not a big fan of 'politicians' to be honest) and more of a 'pretty face' type as well - relying I am sure on 'charm' more than Kaine does. He is definitely persistent however - which could prove to be a good thing (or not - depending on what the 'issue' might be). He lost election after election early in his career but didn't give up.


I see a lack of consistency in his decision making/thought processes as evidenced by his support of Israel (good in my estimation) while at the same time backing the removal of Gaddafi in Libya which I think may have had a lot to do with the destabilization of the middle east (not good - though no one is saying the man was a wonderful person by any means). If one compartmentalizes these international issues and cannot see the 'bigger picture' it can be disastrous long term for everyone. And Pence is not adverse to 'borrowing funds for personal use' on occasion - again he is 'cunning' (both these guys are lawyers, they know the letter of the law and will use it to their advantage at every turn) so when he did that from campaign funds, it was not 'illegal' but I question the ethics of that too. However, again it seems Pence did a reasonable job as governor too. But, while 'personality' should not be an issue here, there is just something about the basic 'who Pence is' that bothers me .. can't put my finger on it yet though.


Both profess to be Catholic (but opposite side of the spectrum even there) and appear to have come from somewhat Irish humble 'immigrant' roots (with a bit of Scottish too on Pence's side). I can see that upbringing in how both have developed as people and politicians over time. I don't care what religion a President (or VP) adheres to (with one exception - where I believe a particular 'religion' is misclassified as same) but it is interesting to see how religious background can influence a candidate's views along the road to power.


This really all does lead me .. nowhere .. much as I had hoped it might help. But, I guess I am better 'educated' and may have a better idea what to expect if either presidential candidate wins and then his/her VP has to take over for some reason. I will keep my ears open from now on. These VP selections were both new to me - were not in any state I lived in - so I needed to 'bone up'. The worst candidate the Republicans have run in recent years has been (to my mind) McCain but he had the best VP pick ever (again, in my estimation) - because that person was NOT a politician (despite having been a governor), and I 'got her' and her roots and why she was what she was. I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised here too .. but I guess I was out of luck this time.
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Old 08-23-2016, 11:05 AM
 
15,706 posts, read 11,770,017 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
Why do you say that (that Kaine will do much better as President) though, trihiker? That is what I am trying to learn here.
Pence is a right wing evangelical who wants to ban abortion and get rid of gays. Can't get more reprehensible and big government than that.
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