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Old 09-11-2009, 12:14 PM
 
4,127 posts, read 5,067,345 times
Reputation: 1621

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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyholiday View Post
Socialism/communism = trickle up poverty.

I love math! You get reps!
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Old 09-11-2009, 12:40 PM
 
18,130 posts, read 25,286,567 times
Reputation: 16835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Ryder View Post
I love math! You get reps!
How about this one:
Trickle down = Average person begging for crumbs
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Old 09-11-2009, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, Maryland
192 posts, read 219,902 times
Reputation: 72
How is that any different from the Russia, North Korea, Cuba, and Vietnam that you guy idolise?

Western Europe is similar. I always hear liberals talking enviously about how in Europe no one is selfish, no one has big cars or fancy things, they live off of what they have, etc as if this is supposed to be some lifestyle I am supposed to envy. Europeans have no money, except for those at the very top. With 50+% income taxes, $7 a gallon gasoline, 16-20% VAT (very similar to sales tax, but not exactly), these people have no money. So yeah, they all have health care, but when I tried to go to the movies in Leister Square my movie ticket was the equivalent of $28 USD, no joke.
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Old 09-11-2009, 01:08 PM
 
47 posts, read 116,146 times
Reputation: 79
And while we spend out time arguing about capitalism, socialism, and communism, the fascists are getting away with robbing this country blind.

Check out these charts: Top 1 Percent of Americans Reaped Two-Thirds of Income Gains in Last Economic Expansion — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

I was born in the mid 50's and enjoyed growing up in America when there was significantly less government, and more personal freedom and personal wealth amongst more people in this country. One of the many problems with "big government", no matter if it's socialist, communist, or fascist, is that wealth and power becomes concentrated in the hands of a few. America is bleeding, and will continue to bleed, because she has strayed away from her founding principles of a republic - where the individual's rights are just as important a the majority's.

Notice the dates on the charts and think about what's been happening in this country since the end of WWI and the beginning of what is now called the U.N. (You can't get any bigger government than a "one world government" - now that's an issue people should really be worried about 'cause they're bringing it about very insidiously, using all sorts of manipulations that most people don't realize is affecting their personal rights, local ordinances, property rights, control of natural resources, etc.)

I remember hearing all the debates as I grew up - about more government in education, government mandates on healthcare (HMO's) ... And as life will show, the more America developed government run/sponsored/mandated "socialist" programs in any area of life, such as social security, welfare, eduction (test scores across the board have plummeted since the federal government became involved in education), health care, finance, farming, water, energy, the more concentrated the wealth of this country has become, and the higher the cost of living for the rest of us. No one can deny those correlations.

The Congress and the Courts of this country have made some serious mistakes, for which Americans have paid for dearly by not standing up and stopping them, such as:

1. Congress giving control of our monetary system to the Federal Reserve Bank, a private, for profit corporation - Federal Reserve Act, 1913 - with no means for The People thru Congress, to have any oversight or control of our own monetary system. There has never been a real audit of the Federal Reserve since it's inception. Yet we get audited by the IRS, the strong arm of the Federal Reserve, don't we? Congressman Ron Paul recently introduced H.R. 1207 into the House, and a colleague introduced S 604 into the Senate calling for an audit of the Federal Reserve. Note: all Republican congressmen have signed on to H.R. 1207, but not all Democrats, now why is that? I suggest people call their elected "representatives" and find out if they're behind these bills or not and vote them out accordingly.
2. Congress implementing the federal income tax - passed the same year as the Federal Reserve Act. (note: this country's greatest depression occurred just 15 years after passing both Acts. Didn't take long for them to destroy this country's economy.)
3. Congress enacted Social Security. (nearing the end of my "productive years", I can say I wish I had all that money to invest in my retirement myself, instead of being forced into a ponzi scheme.)
4. Courts gave corporations the same legal rights as individuals.

If you haven't yet, I encourage everyone to watch this documentary online: America: Freedom to Fascism - Director's Authorized Version
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Old 09-11-2009, 01:18 PM
 
126 posts, read 365,893 times
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Too late to introduce here. Americans have a tradition of being strict idealogues and will not even listen to an alternative. They place ideology over practical or logical solutions as Mr Obama has indicated in many of his speeches. Health Care is a perfect example where a Socialist idea would be the moral thing to do. But here in American people scream big goverment even when there are times (like now) when we need health care reform more than ever. Corporate interests are also a huge reason we will never have any form of Socialism here. Too much money would be lost if we got rid of insurance companies and the waste in the current system. That money would be saved and a lot of entities like insurance compnany CEO's, insurance company profits, pharmaceutical profits, etc. All of these entities have the politicians (both democrat and Republicans) in their pocket and this is the biggest reason the current system will be hard to change. The powers want to maintain the status quo. Over time people will become impoverished by the current system and as Marx and Engels wrote, "The proletariate will rise up and defeat Capitalism". We may see a change at some point in time but it will not be in the near future. You'll know when it happens because the blood will flow before you get rid of these corporate criminals.
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Old 09-11-2009, 02:33 PM
 
4,127 posts, read 5,067,345 times
Reputation: 1621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
How about this one:
Trickle down = Average person begging for crumbs
Sorry, that's two wrong answers in a row so no cookies for you. There's a lesson in Capitalism.

Under capitalism you are rewarded for what you accomplish, not for merely existing or mediocrity. Some folks seem to feel that not being rewarded for doing nothing is a punishment but capitalism doesn't punish, it just doesn't reward failure.

Communism and to a lesser extent socialism reward mediocrity and failure while severely punishing success. Successful people are a threat to the ruling class in such systems. Through restrictions and regulation, they make it impossible for the little guy to survive in any position other than servile worker drone. Worker drones are unlikely to usurp the throne.
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Old 09-11-2009, 04:49 PM
 
126 posts, read 365,893 times
Reputation: 71
The fact that this country was built on individualism and the belief that competition will make people successful is true. It's also true that with competition there will be continuous growth as people aspire to invent new technologies. The problem with this whole philosopy is that where there is competition there are winners and losers. This competition works well in the arena of sports such as football, soccer, baseball, etc. In sport it's fun to participate and do your best trying to win but if you don't it's no big deal and everyone forgets 5 minutes after the game ends. Unfortunately this same idea of competition is not forgotten after the game ends in society. When entire companies go out of business or countries lose jobs due to jobs going overseas people suffer. This is inevitable in competition. When the game ends people on the losing end suffer when they can't pay their bills, lose their health care, lose their homes, etc. Wherever there is a winner there is a loser and this is the reason that our current system will ultimately fail. The current system of competition among business and countries is flawed in nature because there will always be losers. The losers will always be there and with the current system there will never be a chance for equitable distribution for everyone. Eventually the ones losing will diminish to the point where they will revolt and take from the winners. It will be at this point that the entire process starts again unless there is a change in society's thinking. At some point society will begin to realize this problem and it will be then that society will try a new policy of having a hybrid system that allows sustainable growth as opposed to unbridled growth while also allowing a safety net for those on the losing end through no fault of their own. It is only then that this cycle of greed, unbridled growth and the accelerated destruction of our natural resoureces will cease to exist.
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Old 09-11-2009, 05:10 PM
 
Location: NE Ohio
30,419 posts, read 20,306,967 times
Reputation: 8958
Quote:
Originally Posted by alaplex View Post
The fact that this country was built on individualism and the belief that competition will make people successful is true. It's also true that with competition there will be continuous growth as people aspire to invent new technologies. The problem with this whole philosopy is that where there is competition there are winners and losers. This competition works well in the arena of sports such as football, soccer, baseball, etc. In sport it's fun to participate and do your best trying to win but if you don't it's no big deal and everyone forgets 5 minutes after the game ends. Unfortunately this same idea of competition is not forgotten after the game ends in society. When entire companies go out of business or countries lose jobs due to jobs going overseas people suffer. This is inevitable in competition. When the game ends people on the losing end suffer when they can't pay their bills, lose their health care, lose their homes, etc. Wherever there is a winner there is a loser and this is the reason that our current system will ultimately fail. The current system of competition among business and countries is flawed in nature because there will always be losers. The losers will always be there and with the current system there will never be a chance for equitable distribution for everyone. Eventually the ones losing will diminish to the point where they will revolt and take from the winners. It will be at this point that the entire process starts again unless there is a change in society's thinking. At some point society will begin to realize this problem and it will be then that society will try a new policy of having a hybrid system that allows sustainable growth as opposed to unbridled growth while also allowing a safety net for those on the losing end through no fault of their own. It is only then that this cycle of greed, unbridled growth and the accelerated destruction of our natural resoureces will cease to exist.
Are you serious? Didn't think so.

Name a country where socialism/communism has worked.

Competition keeps prices low, product quality high, and promotes entrepreneurship. Tell me if I'm wrong, and explain why.
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Old 09-11-2009, 05:22 PM
 
4,923 posts, read 11,189,652 times
Reputation: 3321
When former communists are warning America that we ought to dial back the socialism trend in our current gubment, maybe we ought to listen.
When western European governments are gulping at our recent governmental incursions into free enterprise, maybe we ought to listen.
They've been there, done that...and they are starting to dial back the socialism needle in their own countries.

Something in human nature seems to make every generation think they're having thoughts that have never been thought, never been tried. History shows that any type of commune, or utopian cooperative community has never worked, not once.

Aren't the dry husks of NK and Cuba enough of a warning? Isn't the fact that much of western Europe is really beginning to lean more conservatively some type of indication that we might not want to go down that road?

Who was it, Winston Churchill, who said something along the lines of "If a man isn't a liberal at age 20, he has no heart. If he is not conservative at age 30 he has no brain."..
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Old 09-11-2009, 05:49 PM
 
Location: OB
2,404 posts, read 3,948,403 times
Reputation: 879
Quote:
Originally Posted by twista6002 View Post
A common insult towards the Democratic Party recently has been "Socialist". I'm on the fence about this issue, but let's be serious, why wouldn't either of these political institutions work in America?
We tried socialism and it failed. Miserably I might. The Pilgrims' Plymouth Colony started as a socialist coop. About half to 2/3 of the original colonists died over the first three years. Governor Bradford ended the Pilgrims distasterous socialist experiment and changed to system of free enterprise. That harvest Bradford commented, "By this time harvest was come, and instead of famine, now God gave them plentie, and the face of things was changed, to the rejoysing of the harts of many, for which they blessed God."

Pilgrim's Socialistic Experiment Fails
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