Is Czech Republic the utopian version of Eastern Europe, or at least an ideal role model for all of Eastern Europe? (dangerous, black)
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You seem completely uncapable of understanding my point. You seem to think the term 'Eastern Europe' as an insult, but for example the UN don't think that way.
No, the Czech Republic is not comparable with Moldova, but neither is Germany and Portugal.
Division of the world according to the United Nations is still deep rooted in the Cold War era. Sad but true.
For country belonging to Western civilization and being at least reasonable civilized, the term "Eastern Europe" is insult. Do you really think that one tragic episode can determine future of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia and Croatia?!
You seem completely uncapable of understanding my point. You seem to think the term 'Eastern Europe' as an insult, but for example the UN don't think that way.
No, the Czech Republic is not comparable with Moldova, but neither is Germany and Portugal.
I don't want to be pesky or anything, but think before you say something or at least try to find statistical data.
Germany vs Czech Republic
Czech Republic is not the same as Germany, but historically there have always been very close connection to Germany. The most proper German language in Europe was spoken in Prague not even 100 years ago. Today, the situation is a bit different language-wise, but still a lot of people know German.
Economically-wise, Czech Republic is referred to as another "bundesrepublik", another part of Germany, only speaking officially different language. Look at the companies there!
So long story short, Czech R. and Germany is comparable.
Portugal vs Czech Republic
They are comparable too. And actually if you first looked on some data, you would see that Czech Republic is actually doing better than Portugal
But Ariete is talking about people´s perception. Perception. There is nothing more about it. Two weeks ago I met two nice girls from Finland and they knew nothing about our country. Do you think it made me angry? No, it did not. When somebody ask me where I am from, I answer "The Czech Republic, former Czechoslovakia" or "Prague, Vaclav Havel" or I mention Skoda Cars. An average person from Finland, Belgium, Wales and so on just associates our country with Eastern Europe because they just do not care. Historically Bohemia, Moravia and our part of Silesia have always been a part of "The West" (with exception of years 1948 - 1989). You know that, I know that and Ariete also knows that.
But Ariete is talking about people´s perception. Perception. There is nothing more about it.
Perception is one thing and truth is another thing. Ariete is maybe talking about perception. But this perception is not only wrong, it is absolutely damaging for our country. All I can say it is tragedy that twenty four years after end of Cold War, many people still think we are Eastern Europe.
Well, at the beginning of 15th century, many people thought that Earth is flat...
Last edited by Mikkarter; 10-19-2013 at 04:19 PM..
Twenty years from now the perception of the Czech Republic being in any way associated with "Eastern Europe" will be a thing of the past.
Although many older adults in "the West" invariably think of bread lines, the Berlin Wall, or drab socialist housing projects when they hear the word "Czechoslovakia", most Czech kids today see themselves as peers of the Germans and the French, with the same interests, aspirations, and technologies. Communism is a complete abstraction to them, and the rate of development in the past twenty years has been staggering.
And culturally, Czech values (democracy, rule of law, industrialization) have always been more in accord with Western Europe than the East, hence the repugnance some Czechs have to being associated in any way with what they perceive of as "Eastern" traits (authoritarianism, lack of development, irrationalism, etc.)
I'm looking forward to the time when the (historically somewhat understandable) lumping of the Czechs in with "the East" will once again be behind us.
Twenty years from now the perception of the Czech Republic being in any way associated with "Eastern Europe" will be a thing of the past.
Although many older adults in "the West" invariably think of bread lines, the Berlin Wall, or drab socialist housing projects when they hear the word "Czechoslovakia", most Czech kids today see themselves as peers of the Germans and the French, with the same interests, aspirations, and technologies. Communism is a complete abstraction to them, and the rate of development in the past twenty years has been staggering.
And culturally, Czech values (democracy, rule of law, industrialization) have always been more in accord with Western Europe than the East, hence the repugnance some Czechs have to being associated in any way with what they perceive of as "Eastern" traits (authoritarianism, lack of development, irrationalism, etc.)
I'm looking forward to the time when the (historically somewhat understandable) lumping of the Czechs in with "the East" will once again be behind us.
Sure it will be all left behind, just don't forget to change your Slavic language to German))))
Sure it will be all left behind, just don't forget to change your Slavic language to German))))
Do you really think that just because of spoken language (not even written language, Czech and Russian have quite different alphabet) we are disqualified from western civilization? Language is absolutely irrelevant. Otherwise, Finns must have more in common with primitive Siberian tribes than with Swedes. Isn´t it nonsense?
I do not really understand why Mikkartel care so much about what some uneducated people will think about him.
And I do not understand what is so-called West-European Civilasation?
If it is the synonimus for the democracy and human rights - I agree. But only for the last 60 years.
And the MAJORITY of countries in Westerrn Europe had AUTHOCRATIC regimes in not very recent past.
Spain, Portugal - in Southern Europe
In the 1930 ALL Eastern European countries except of Czech Republic had autocratic regimes.
In Poland - Pilsudski. Quite an autocrat. And they have percent norm for Jews in the universities (as in Tsarist Russia).
In Latvia - Karlis Ulmanis.
In Estonia - Konstantin Päts.
Both of them had moderately nationalistic views.
Both the leaders of Latvia and Estonia cut down the activity of the parliaments and "the political action of political parties were prohibited".
In Latvia Ulmanis was worshiped by pro-government press an "the most genial leader in Europe" or "twice a genius".
It doesn't warrant the annexation. But it was a sad true.
In Hungary - the regime was autocratic. Anti-semitism was also quite popular.
So, which countries can be called democratic in 1930?
Only France, the USA (except racial discrimination), the UK (but an English gentelman could be not such a gentelman in the colonies).
And in Eastern Europe the only democratic country in 1930s was Czechoslovakia. And it was NOT protected by other democratic countries, that let Hitler to occupy the Sudets.
And today lots of politicians in Eastern Europe are not so "European".
Modern Europe means social-democratic views, the prohibiton of radical nationalistic views.
Modern Europe means absolute tolerance to gays and lesbians (LGBT).
And in Eastern Europe - in Poland, in Baltic coutries and in Hungary - lots of politicians have the opposite views. Especially those of them , who are flamboyant anti-communists.
They have nationalistic, clerical, homophobic views.
So, Czech Republic is the exception in some ways. It is more modern than other East European countries.
I hope I did not offend anyone by mentioning the fact that Pilsudski and Ulmanis or Hungarian leaders were autocrats and the fact that some politicians in modern Eastern Europe had clerical and nationalistic views.
I just think that there is some false conception that:
1) Europe was always the synonimus for democracy and human rights.
No, it was not. Adolf Hitler and his ideology was also a part of Western civilisation. Hitler was supported by people in Germany, Austria and even by some people in France and Britain.
2) Eastern Euoropean countries were modern democraties before their including in Soviet system.
No, there weren't. The majority of them (except of Czechoslovakia) were not. They were autocratic.
People in Eastern Europe and in Baltic countries also commited crimes against Jews during the Holocoust. Even after the WWII there was an anti-Jews pogrom in Warsaw.
3) Politicians in Eastern European countries were just some innocent puppets in the hands of Stalin (who by the way killed my own relatives, so I am a victim of him no less than people in Poland in Czechia). No, they were not just puppets. They also had the responsibiluty for the crimes.
4)There was only terror and opression.
No. In Eastern European lost of people of proletarian origin enter the Communistic party in 1940s and 1950s, because they wanted to make a carrier.
There was also cultural connections. For example, film actors from Baltic countries were very popular in the USSR. A famous Latvian pop-music composer wrote music for Soviert pop-singers.
There was econonomical and financial support. In 1946 Soviet Union gave Eastern Europeans bread and wheat, while Russian peasants were themselves without bread. It was certainly a part of propaganda, but still a bread is a bread.
There was also economical connections. We are speaking about Czech Republic. Everyone here knows, I hope, that Czech' crystal glass was very popular in Soviet Union. So, the crystal glass industry in Czech Republic worked in full production and in full power.
So, I hope that I did not offend anyone. And I really think that "Western Civilisation" is not very correct construction. Adolf Hitler, racism, nationalism were also parts of it. Modern European Union is one thing, but Europe 70 years ago was quite different.
______
So, it's not correct to see the history through "modern glasses". To "project" modern sutuation to the past. People who know history can't do that. It's only polticians or philistines who do so.
So, Mikkertel should not be anxious that some philistines, who do not read serious books and know history only form pop-culture and mass-media, have some prejudices against Czechia. Just do not care that the philistines think.
Last edited by Muscovite; 10-20-2013 at 05:08 AM..
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