Is Czech Republic the utopian version of Eastern Europe, or at least an ideal role model for all of Eastern Europe? (train, pay)
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I really hope that the honorable participants of this discussion won't be silent. And will correct my points. It is a very interesting discussion and I hope that it will not be shut down.
In my previous posts I discussed the historical situation in Eastern Europe in general. In Czech Republic the situation was different in some points. Czech Republic was much more advanced on the way to modern democratic society than the others.
I just beg people not to view history from the modern glasses, forgeting that Western Europe was not always the same and that Hitler and racism were aslo Western European phenomena (supported by the plain people and by the elite).
And I beg Mikkertel not to play that self-victimisation game. Istvan Bibo a famous Hungarian politician said somewhere that self-victimisation can be dangerous. Have you own pride.
In fact the conception of Eastern Europe was not born during the Cold War. it was only re-actualised.
The conception of Eastern Europe have roots in 18th century.
Louis Philippe, comte de Ségur a French historian and a dimplomat of 18th century said in his memoirs, that "crossing the border between Prussia and Poland" he "absolutely left Europe" anf "felt themself 10 (!!!) centuries ago".
So, Western Europeans, incuding French had prejudices against Eastern Europe from 18th century.
Maybe it has some roots in the fact that French encyclpaedists (Voltaire, etc) were flamboyant anti-clericals, why Poland, who "main" Eastern European country was flamboyant catholic country.
Now, it is still the part of the myth that:
"Western" means "good", "progressive" (ommiting the evident fact that Hitler and racism were Western phenomena), while "Eeastern" means "retrograde" and "bad".
The other "theoleological" myth is that Western history was "predetermine" to born modern Europe, modern EU with democracy, tolerance, etc. No, history was more complex. Not a long time ago lots of people in Western Europe supported Hitler or Mussolini or Franco. And those people were not only some idiots, no, lots of quite respectable people supported them.
Do you really think that just because of spoken language (not even written language, Czech and Russian have quite different alphabet) we are disqualified from western civilization? Language is absolutely irrelevant.
Of course language IS relevant; the perceptions and stereotypes will be always strong in people's minds, whether we like it or not. And Czech language IS Slavic, no matter what type of alphabet you use. Just look at the poll here, which asks whether the voters see difference between Czechs and Poles, and I assure you that language has a lot to do with these perceptions.)
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Otherwise, Finns must have more in common with primitive Siberian tribes than with Swedes. Isn´t it nonsense?
Tsk-tsk, I'll tell you a secret; Finns were considered inferior to Swedes for long time, and it had got nothing to do with them ( Finns) being part of the Russian Empire. Even now, if you pay attention, quite a few people here try to put Finns in a different category comparably to the rest of Scandinavians, and I suspect that language group has a lot to do with it. Me personally - I don't see much difference ( whatever/whoever Finns were originally, they definitely evolved becoming just your another Scandinavian group of people.)
Another thing - when you are talking about "being primitive," making a parallel between Siberian tribes and lamenting that Czechs are put in practically the same category as Russians, I can assure you ( yet again,) that Russia is not all that primitive as you are trying to imagine. It's crazy at times and unpredictable country - that much is true, but this craziness is not coming from primitivity, but rather the opposite - from complexity of the country's background, its history, philosophy and experience. I've being around, lived in different places, and I can tell you that certain part of Russians are one of the most sophisticated, perceptive and intelligent people among all Europeans I've ever met, be they scientists or just average representatives of Russian intelligentsia, and what was the biggest surprise for me - the reps of the Soviet military.
So. Quit being upset about being a Slav, take pride in what you are, and stop pretending to be a German. I wish your country well, ( although I don't hold my breath for the lengthy existence of the European Union,) and I've already used my portion of being serious for the day, so don't expect it too much in the nearest future.
In fact the conception of Eastern Europe was not born during the Cold War. it was only re-actualised.
The conception of Eastern Europe have roots in 18th century.
Louis Philippe, comte de Ségur a French historian and a dimplomat of 18th century said in his memoirs, that "crossing the border between Prussia and Poland" he "absolutely left Europe" anf "felt themself 10 (!!!) centuries ago".
So, Western Europeans, incuding French had prejudices against Eastern Europe from 18th century.
Of course it was not, but quit confusing the young minds, when everything in their world has been already divided in black and white.
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Maybe it has some roots in the fact that French encyclpaedists (Voltaire, etc) were flamboyant anti-clericals, why Poland, who "main" Eastern European country was flamboyant catholic country.
Now, it is still the part of the myth that:
"Western" means "good", "progressive" (ommiting the evident fact that Hitler and racism were Western phenomena), while "Eeastern" means "retrograde" and "bad".
The other "theoleological" myth is that Western history was "predetermine" to born modern Europe, modern EU with democracy, tolerance, etc. No, history was more complex. Not a long time ago lots of people in Western Europe supported Hitler or Mussolini or Franco. And those people were not only some idiots, no, lots of quite respectable people supported them.
Well whoever think that Western Europeans are gods might be mistaken after all, since they are only humans after all))))
It has nothing to do with geography, culture or history - it's only geopolitics. We can return to the matter in 30 years.
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Originally Posted by Mikkarter
Who say that Poland and Hungary (or Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia and Croatia) are in Eastern Europe??? These countries were for virtually all of their histories part of western civilization. One TRAGIC episode can not determine their future! One sh*t cannot damage them forever. But of course, to be thrown on the same pile as Romania, Bulgaria or Ukraine is definitely detrimental. We were in the same political and economic structures for merely forty years. Since 1989 I did not notice that there is any kind of alliance grouping countries like Czech republic or Ukraine. By the way, do you think that the Czech republic (normal civilized country) is in any way comparable to Belarus, Ukraine or Moldova???
As for economic development: Czech republic (GDP per capita 27,000) is poorer in comparison with Sweden (GDP 40,304) or Switzerland (GDP 44,864). Does it mean that Czech republic could be disqualified from the group of developed countries? Only if you also disqualify Greece (GDP 24,260), Portugal (GDP 23,047), Malta (GDP 26,857) or Cyprus (GDP 26,794)! Do you think that these countries are not considered to be developed?
This is about much more than just economics, and politics. Why are some people too obsessed with economics and completely forgetting everything else important in the reality of the world?
This is also about culture, scenery, energy, lifestyle, international relations, place in the world, language, people scene, and architecture.
The majority of people feel Czech Republic is a region of Eastern Europe, or Central Europe+Eastern Europe simultaneously. I even met some world history teachers and Czech people feeling this country is part of Eastern Europe and more similar to countries such as Poland, Russia, Romania etc. compared to Austria, Germany, Denmark etc. for plenty of reasons.
Most official maps confirm Czech Republic is in Eastern Europe, even while in Central Europe at the same time.
I don’t really have too much of a negative opinion of this Eastern Europe term, and I have some of a positive opinion for this region of the world. I know plenty of people have a positive, neutral, or mixed view of Eastern Europe, and not too much of a negative stigmatized opinion.
Czech Republic is a tourism destination, at least in Prague, Brno, and Moravia, and a noticeable amount of people have idealistic, and pleasant views of Czech Republic, and some similar opinions for some other countries able to be associated in Eastern Europe.
can be an "ideal role model" for Russia in any case, if you get my drift))))
( and Russia IS the ultimate Eastern Europe after all)))
Well, I believe you meant sarcasm because Czech Republic continues to have some of the pleasant, amazing, and underrated architecture in the world.
Yeah, this is Russia vs. Czech Republic for the ultimate Eastern Europe.
I know you have some positive opinions of Eastern Europe, and we would never insult Eastern Europe too much because we have parents, and family members from there in ethnic heritage. Have you lived in Russia when you were younger?
However, the main question is now what level of “Western influence” do you have in your life right now? I really have some appreciation and respect for some regions of Eastern Europe, and at the same time don’t feel I am from Romania Eastern Europe in ethnic heritage, and always feel like a foreigner when I travel there.
In ethnic heritage, I somehow felt I am French, Dutch, Denmark, Swiss, or Austrian more than Romanian. I was mistaken for one of those nationalities and ethnicity when visiting Romania. Some people would say I am very “Western.”
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Originally Posted by Ariete
But I don't use the term 'Eastern Europe' as an insult, and neither do most other people.
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Originally Posted by Ariete
You seem to think the term 'Eastern Europe' as an insult, but for example the UN don't think that way.
No, the Czech Republic is not comparable with Moldova, but neither is Germany and Portugal.
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Originally Posted by greywolf1923
Czech Republic is my favorite country in eastern europe with very pretty girls and amazing city praga. It's still not developt and poor country.But richer and better then rest of eastern europe countires.I love the night life in praga i had great memories there i can't wait to go back there.Praga is the best city for me in europe.
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Originally Posted by Muscovite
So, Czech Republic is the exception in some ways. It is more modern than other East European countries.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Sure it will be all left behind, just don't forget to change your Slavic language to German))))
Yeah, I agree in the posts I quoted right above this sentence. Thank you for your post responses everyone, especially for the people I agree with, and not too much disagreement.
I am just sick of all ignorants who throw as on the same pile as Romanians or Ukrainians and who think that Prague is east of Vienna. Do you really think that we are not just normal civilized country???
It is not a good strategy to "westernise" yourself by "easternazing" other countries. Your are unsulted by the fact that some people do not think about you and your nation as equals. And try to improve situation by "easternising" other nations.
All Eastern, Central and Baltic countries have different history.
Some of them (e.g. Baltic countries) had the situation when the peasants were of one nation and the feodals were from the other nation. If we would be able to use a time-machine and went to 18 century and asked German feodals that they thought about their peasants, I am afraid that they thought about them as all feodals thought about peasants.
At the same time I am afraid that Polish feodals also did not think about the peasants of Kresy Wshodnie (Belarus, Ukraine) as about the equals to them.
Yet, Kiev, the capital of Ukraine, had Magdeburg law, while Moscow had not.
Czechia was a part of Austro-Hungarian Empire. It was certainly one of the most industrialised part of that Empire.
Still, Germans did no treat Czechs as equals. When Franz Josef made a law that Czech language should have more official rights, that it can be used in the documents, etc. there was some kind of hysteria among Austrian Germans. And so Franz Josef became to be afraid that if he will support Czechs more, he will lost German's loyality. He was afraid that Austrian Germans would become loyal to the Hohenzollern.
Russia at 18th-19th centuries was a multi-national Empire. It's aristocracy was absolutely "westernised". Baltic Germans were an integral part of that aristocracy.
Polish aristocrats were also sometimes a part of Russian Emperial elite. Adam Czartoryski for example was a friend of Alexander I.
Russian Jews were dicriminated. We had the "percentage norm" (but the independent Poland also had the "percentage norm" in 1930s). But only Alexander III and Nicholas II were deeply anti-semitic. Nicholas I was not an anti-semite, despite being quite unpleasant and autocratic person.
But at the time of Nicholas II they had also the rise of anti-semitism in Austria. Karl Lueger,who became the burgomeister of Vienna was an anti-semite, though he moderated his views, when he became an official.
Last edited by Muscovite; 10-21-2013 at 12:48 AM..
I don't know about other countries, but in Russia all these facts about Czechia being one of the most industrialised parts of Austro-Hungarian Empire, about conflicts between Austrian Germans and Czechs on the ground of the new status of Czech language that Franz Josef tried to adjust, can be found in a textbook on History of Western Europe, America and Asia in the New age.
It's all written in the school textbooks about 1870-1918 period (we have such periodisation of Western history in Russian schools), in the chapter about Austro-Hungarian Empire.
So, I really do not understand why Mikkartel is so anxious that some people do not know such evident facts. I know them since the 10th grade of the school.
Last edited by Muscovite; 10-21-2013 at 12:52 AM..
This is about much more than just economics, and politics. Why are some people too obsessed with economics and completely forgetting everything else important in the reality of the world?
This is also about culture, scenery, energy, lifestyle, international relations, place in the world, language, people scene, and architecture.
The majority of people feel Czech Republic is a region of Eastern Europe, or Central Europe+Eastern Europe simultaneously. I even met some world history teachers and Czech people feeling this country is part of Eastern Europe and more similar to countries such as Poland, Russia, Romania etc. compared to Austria, Germany, Denmark etc. for plenty of reasons.
Most official maps confirm Czech Republic is in Eastern Europe, even while in Central Europe at the same time.
I don’t really have too much of a negative opinion of this Eastern Europe term, and I have some of a positive opinion for this region of the world. I know plenty of people have a positive, neutral, or mixed view of Eastern Europe, and not too much of a negative stigmatized opinion.
Czech Republic is a tourism destination, at least in Prague, Brno, and Moravia, and a noticeable amount of people have idealistic, and pleasant views of Czech Republic, and some similar opinions for some other countries able to be associated in Eastern Europe.
In Poland - Pilsudski. Quite an autocrat. And they have percent norm for Jews in the universities (as in Tsarist Russia).
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Originally Posted by Muscovite
Even after the WWII there was an anti-Jews pogrom in Warsaw.
Do you have any reliable sources for this? I couldn't find anything substantial myself.
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