Is Czech Republic the utopian version of Eastern Europe, or at least an ideal role model for all of Eastern Europe? (Greek, Germans)

[Muscovite]

iridiumIX

Well, there was pogrom in Kielce in 1946.

On July 4, 1946, local Polish antisemites attacked the Jewish community of some 200 Holocaust survivors, killing 42. This has been theorized as a cause of outward Jewish migration (displaced persons) from Poland immediately following the end of the war

The say in some books, that there was percentage norm in Poland in 1930s. Now, looking through the Internet, I found that some say that it was unnofficial percentage norm.

Pilsudski was not a paranoid person (as late Stalin) and for sure life in Poland in 1930s was not so bad for the people. In fact he was quite reasonable in some ways: some people in Russian White immigration urge him to start a large-scaled war against Soviet Russia, but Pilsudski reasonable told them that he interested only in protecting Polish interests.
Some people in Russian White Immigration was dissapointed, when Pilsudski and Soviet Russia reasonably signed peace in 1921.

And in Latvia under the rule of Ulmanis there was still a large Jewish community in 1930, doing business and all other things. Latvia was a capitalistic country, so for those Jews, who wanted to do bussiness, it was better than communistic USSR. But it chaged in 1940s and people in Latvia (and also in Lithuania) helped Nazi to kill Jews.

So, my main reason was to show, that history was not so black and white. And while the majority of Eastern European autocrats were not so bad, these societies (unlike Czech Republic, which I believe was more modern) can't be called modern democracies.

I think that some people and politicians in these countries tend to use their role "of victims of Russia" as some "ticket" to Europe. But they do not need such a ticket. They already are EU members. So, those great nations with large and long history, should concetrate on business, economical connetctions with EU, the USA and Russia, using their cross-roads geographic place, and on tourists.

And I really believe that the image of Czech Republic in particular is quite positive in other countries.

In Russia the image of Czechia is very positive: an image of a beautiful country, with reasonable, smart, neat and industrious people.

[albion]

In my experience people in the Czech Republic are very hard working likeable people, and they quite understandably don't like the Russians and that's an understatement!

[erasure]

Originally Posted by Thepastpresentandfuture

Well, I believe you meant sarcasm because Czech Republic continues to have some of the pleasant, amazing, and underrated architecture in the world.

Yeah, this is Russia vs. Czech Republic for the ultimate Eastern Europe.

To me this architecture looks very German, hence my sarcastic remark on a subject "is Czech republic a role model for Eastern Europe."
Since the way I see it, the economy of "Eastern Europe" is mostly purchased with German money, and Eastern Europeans are dreaming to "unite with Germany,' or are secretly wishing to become Germans, it cracks me up. This obviously can't be a "role model" for Russia, and Russia IS the ultimate Eastern Europe.
The funniest part is, that although Russia is influenced by Germany may be on a much deeper level than other European countries (I'm talking philosophy, music, system of education and all those endless kings of German origin,) but Russians are the ones who vehemently deny it and insist on their own identity. Ask our uber-patriot resident Grey-Karast, and he'll explain to you that rucksack is an ancient Russian word, and so is shlagbaum.
That's nothing against Germans per se - they are intelligent, resourceful and capable people, just not without their own demons when it's coming to their national character.
It's rather more telling about many "Eastern Europeans" who seem to be incapable of recognizing their own past ( irrespectively from Russia - just look at some facts from history that Moscovite pointed at,) who live by stereotypes, yet demand that everyone else would drop their stereotypes regarding them.

I know you have some positive opinions of Eastern Europe, and we would never insult Eastern Europe too much because we have parents, and family members from there in ethnic heritage. Have you lived in Russia when you were younger?

No, of course not, I have no intention to insult, but our classic literature teaches us to look in our own shortcomings and those of us who read it, usually get it.

However, the main question is now what level of “Western influence” do you have in your life right now?

To be honestly - none. After my long life "in the West" I became more informed, I've learned to speak to Westerners in their own terms, yet to say that I've been influenced somehow - not really. See, this "western" train of thinking was always alive and well in Russia, as part of historic split in national philosophy, and one didn't need to go to University to learn about it. It's the way of upbringing in families, it's the outlook on life, yet it's still not German or French, but distinctly Russian outlook.
That's why I'm saying that I haven't been influenced too much, and - oh yeah, I still keep my hickish Russian accent.

[Mikkarter]

Originally Posted by erasure

Of course language IS relevant; the perceptions and stereotypes will be always strong in people's minds, whether we like it or not. And Czech language IS Slavic, no matter what type of alphabet you use. Just look at the poll here, which asks whether the voters see difference between Czechs and Poles, and I assure you that language has a lot to do with these perceptions.)



Tsk-tsk, I'll tell you a secret; Finns were considered inferior to Swedes for long time, and it had got nothing to do with them ( Finns) being part of the Russian Empire. Even now, if you pay attention, quite a few people here try to put Finns in a different category comparably to the rest of Scandinavians, and I suspect that language group has a lot to do with it. Me personally - I don't see much difference ( whatever/whoever Finns were originally, they definitely evolved becoming just your another Scandinavian group of people.)
Another thing - when you are talking about "being primitive," making a parallel between Siberian tribes and lamenting that Czechs are put in practically the same category as Russians, I can assure you ( yet again,) that Russia is not all that primitive as you are trying to imagine. It's crazy at times and unpredictable country - that much is true, but this craziness is not coming from primitivity, but rather the opposite - from complexity of the country's background, its history, philosophy and experience. I've being around, lived in different places, and I can tell you that certain part of Russians are one of the most sophisticated, perceptive and intelligent people among all Europeans I've ever met, be they scientists or just average representatives of Russian intelligentsia, and what was the biggest surprise for me - the reps of the Soviet military.
So. Quit being upset about being a Slav, take pride in what you are, and stop pretending to be a German. I wish your country well, ( although I don't hold my breath for the lengthy existence of the European Union,) and I've already used my portion of being serious for the day, so don't expect it too much in the nearest future.

What does indicate language? Nothing, except the fact, that two thousand years ago, our ancestors and ancestors of Russians, Ukrainians or Bulgarians spoke the same language. In that time, we used to be just another blue eyed light haired barbarians. We were neither Eastern, nor Western.
What does indicate our alphabet? Quite a lot. It does indicate the culture which influence have been dominant for more than thousand years. If you did not record it, thousand years is much more than forty years. I am not ashamed to be Slav. It´s just linguistic category. And language is irrelevant. Do you think that Indo-European Castlilians and Catalans have more in common with Indo-European Bengali or non-Indoeuropean Basques? Do you think that Maltese have more in common with Italians or Libyans. And by the way, there is NO difference between Finns and Swedes. If some Swede consider the Finns to be inferior he just proves to be fool.

[Mikkarter]

Thepastpresentandfuture said: "This is about much more than just economics, and politics. Why are some people too obsessed with economics and completely forgetting everything else important in the reality of the world?
This is also about culture, scenery, energy, lifestyle, international relations, place in the world, language, people scene, and architecture.
The majority of people feel Czech Republic is a region of Eastern Europe, or Central Europe+Eastern Europe simultaneously. I even met some world history teachers and Czech people feeling this country is part of Eastern Europe and more similar to countries such as Poland, Russia, Romania etc. compared to Austria, Germany, Denmark etc. for plenty of reasons."

But we have belonged for more than thousand years to Western civilization. There was no byzantine influence! Look at any important building in Prague or Vienna. I bet if you exchange any of historic church/palace/burgher house between these cities, and I bet building from Prague would perfectly compatible in Vienna and vice versa. Than compare Prague with Moscow or Kiev...
As for you claim that "majority o people feel Czech republic is a region of Eastern Europe": At any reasonable source (Wikipedia, CIA World fact book, etc.), Czech republic is introduced as "landlocked country in Central Europe". Why do you so vehemently think that Prague is east of Vienna?

[Mikkarter]

Originally Posted by Muscovite

It is not a good strategy to "westernise" yourself by "easternazing" other countries. Your are unsulted by the fact that some people do not think about you and your nation as equals. And try to improve situation by "easternising" other nations.

I do not need to be westernized. For thousand years my nation have belonged to western civilization. The same is true for Baltic, Poles, Hungarians, etc. If you notice that some parts of Poland or Hungary were backward (you notice de Segur), the same is true for South Italy, South Spain or Ireland. In 19th century, English were actually quite racist against Irish people. Does it make them non-western?
But of course, countries east of Poland, Hungary and south-east of Croatia, these countries were traditionally under Byzantine influence and therefore they are definitely Eastern. These are the facts.

[Frihed89]

Originally Posted by Ariete

Multicultural? You're kidding, right? The population is 95% ethnic Czech and the remaining five percent Roma and from neighboring countries like Slovakia and Poland.

In fact Slovakia and Slovenia are best off the former Soviet satellites in Central Europe. Estonia of course overall the most developed. The Czech Republic was in a good position in the 90's, but neighboring Slovakia and Slovenia have surpassed the Czech long ago.

My vote goes to the Poles!

[erasure]

Originally Posted by Mikkarter

What does indicate language? Nothing, except the fact, that two thousand years ago, our ancestors and ancestors of Russians, Ukrainians or Bulgarians spoke the same language.

That's right. Your language indicates that you are from a different tribe, comparably to the tribes that made foundation of Western European civilization.

What does indicate our alphabet? Quite a lot. It does indicate the culture which influence have been dominant for more than thousand years.

It only indicates that you had to accept the alphabet of the more dominant cultures in the region, sort of like nomads of Asia acquired Russian alphabet.
When people are talking about Western European culture, what comes to mind first of all?
France, Germany, Italy - definitely not Czechs.
Don't blame it all on Communism, because what's regarded as "Western European culture" came in place before all great Soviet revolutionaries were born.

And by the way, there is NO difference between Finns and Swedes.

You are not familiar with the subject, obviously.

If some Swede consider the Finns to be inferior he just proves to be fool.

I've already expressed my opinion regarding it, but who am I to fix other people's minds?

[Mikkarter]

Originally Posted by erasure

That's right. Your language indicates that you are from a different tribe, comparably to the tribes that made foundation of Western European civilization.


It only indicates that you had to accept the alphabet of the more dominant cultures in the region, sort of like nomads of Asia acquired Russian alphabet.
When people are talking about Western European culture, what comes to mind first of all?
France, Germany, Italy - definitely not Czechs.
Don't blame it all on Communism, because what's regarded as "Western European culture" came in place before all great Soviet revolutionaries were born.

First of all: Western nations accepted Latin alphabet. Eastern nations accepted through Greek-Byzantine influence Cyrilics. Latin alphabet is no less Czech than German. Which nations founded the Western civilization? Do you count Scandinavians when they accepted Western christianity approximately the same time as Western Slavs? Why should we be less Western than North Germanic people?
The „tribe“ dissolved after 6th century. Since the time, there is no united Slavic tribe. There are just many Slavic nations. Some accepted Byzantine culture, some accepted Western culture. The time they accepted these cultures is sufficiently long to say that these cultures are THEIR cultures. Czechs experienced Gothic, Renaissance, Reformation, Enlightment, etc. Russians experienced Byzantine influence, Tatar occupation, Samodyerzhavi, etc. Quite different experiences.
You should know that western nations are also non-indo-european Basques, semitic Maltese (their language is actually dialect of Arabic), ugro-finnic Hungarians, Finns and Estonians. On the other hand, such Eastern European nation as Romanians actually speak romance language (And nobody say that they have more in common with French than with Bulgarians).

[erasure]

Originally Posted by Mikkarter

First of all: Western nations accepted Latin alphabet. Eastern nations accepted through Greek-Byzantine influence Cyrilics. Latin alphabet is no less Czech than German.

You think so? Then try to spell German in Cyrillic and try to spell Czech in Cyrilic. That will explain to you a thing or two, what belongs where.

Which nations founded the Western civilization? Do you count Scandinavians when they accepted Western christianity approximately the same time as Western Slavs? Why should we be less Western than North Germanic people?

Because you came originally from Eastern Europe, and "Germanic people" are the natives of the west.

The „tribe“ dissolved after 6th century. Since the time, there is no united Slavic tribe.

Yet originally the tribe was located in the Eastern part of Europe.

There are just many Slavic nations. Some accepted Byzantine culture, some accepted Western culture.

Oh yeah, I just can picture German clergy scratching their heads going like "say we were thinking here about Byzantine culture and those cool onion domes, so we were kinda wondering would you Czechs fancy those domes, or you are more into Gothic stuff?"
And Czechs go; "Byzantium? Nah, that's so yesterday - let dem Russians have it, they are hundred years behind anyways. We are advanced people here, so let's do Latin and Gothic; besides when Americans will show up on the map, they'll love everything Gothic for Halloween and they'll know right away that we are dem Western people."
Rotflmao.

The time they accepted these cultures is sufficiently long to say that these cultures are THEIR cultures. Czechs experienced Gothic, Renaissance, Reformation, Enlightment, etc. Russians experienced Byzantine influence, Tatar occupation, Samodyerzhavi, etc. Quite different experiences.

Of course the experience is different.
The difference however is that Russians were going through all the circles of hell, and created their own distinct culture, where Czechs were part of someone else's history.
That's why people think of Germans/French/ Britons/ as about people who laid foundation of Western European culture, because their achievements were so distinct. And since Czechs didn't create anything as distinct in terms of Western European culture, no one thinks about them in these terms.

You should know that western nations are also non-indo-european Basques, semitic Maltese (their language is actually dialect of Arabic), ugro-finnic Hungarians, Finns and Estonians. On the other hand, such Eastern European nation as Romanians actually speak romance language (And nobody say that they have more in common with French than with Bulgarians).

I'm sorry, again - nobody remembers "dialect of Arabic" when they think about Western Europe, and "Hungarians and Estonians" is not what comes to people's minds, when they talk about that part of the world.
In fact, if you look at the older threads, what people are mostly preoccupied with, is where to place those countries if not geographically, then culturally speaking))))