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Czech Republic and its direct ancestors have been occupying their area in the western part of Europe well over thousand of years, sharing the same culture and everything, having little to no interaction with any eastern european cultures (thus it doesn't have nearly as much of an eastern influence as for example in Italy or Finland), probably always enjoying much higher level of development than most other western european nations.
You think so? Then try to spell German in Cyrillic and try to spell Czech in Cyrilic. That will explain to you a thing or two, what belongs where.
Because you came originally from Eastern Europe, and "Germanic people" are the natives of the west.
Yet originally the tribe was located in the Eastern part of Europe.
Oh yeah, I just can picture German clergy scratching their heads going like "say we were thinking here about Byzantine culture and those cool onion domes, so we were kinda wondering would you Czechs fancy those domes, or you are more into Gothic stuff?"
And Czechs go; "Byzantium? Nah, that's so yesterday - let dem Russians have it, they are hundred years behind anyways. We are advanced people here, so let's do Latin and Gothic; besides when Americans will show up on the map, they'll love everything Gothic for Halloween and they'll know right away that we are dem Western people."
Rotflmao.
Of course the experience is different.
The difference however is that Russians were going through all the circles of hell, and created their own distinct culture, where Czechs were part of someone else's history.
That's why people think of Germans/French/ Britons/ as about people who laid foundation of Western European culture, because their achievements were so distinct. And since Czechs didn't create anything as distinct in terms of Western European culture, no one thinks about them in these terms.
I'm sorry, again - nobody remembers "dialect of Arabic" when they think about Western Europe, and "Hungarians and Estonians" is not what comes to people's minds, when they talk about that part of the world.
In fact, if you look at the older threads, what people are mostly preoccupied with, is where to place those countries if not geographically, then culturally speaking))))
Are you serious? Do you think that Latin alphabet was invented to be compatible with Germanic languages? In fact Latin alphabet is no less compatible with German than with Czech. And I can assure you that the Czech version of Latin alphabet (yes every western nation has his own version of Latin alphabet) is perfectly compatible with needs of Czech language.
Czechs have never written Cyrilics, which was after all created through Greek-Byzantine influence. I hope you do not think that Byzantines were Slavs. Yet Byzantines were nation with dominant influence to Eastern Slavic nations and these nations eventually reciped this culture as thein own. As for compatibility of Latin alphabet with various Western Language: Do you think that Latin alphabet is compatible with the needs of Basque, Maltese, Hungarian, Estonian or Finnish? And where is situated Eastern Europe? East of Prague? Than Vienna or Helsinki must be in Eastern Europe. The fact is that Eastern Europe begins with Byzantine influence.
For your notion that "The difference however is that Russians were going through all the circles of hell, and created their own distinct culture, where Czechs were part of someone else's history." Kingdom of Bohemia was independent political entity within Holly Roman Empire (which was rather confederation of independent states than actual empire). As for the language, as late as the begining of 18th century, Bohemian nobility spoke Czech.
You mentioned that Austro-Hungary was a multi-cultural Empire. Well, Russian Empire also was. Our elite was absolutely multi-cultural, spoke French. Our elite consisted of people of not only Russian, but German and even Polish origin (Polish eilite was not descriminated before 1830 and there were such people as Adam Czaroryski who was a part of the highest imperial elite and a friend of Alexander I).
So, Austro-Hungarian Empire and Russian Empire were both multi-cultural. It's typical for so-called continental Empires to be multi-cultural. And both Russian and Austrian Empires were continental, not "the empires of the seas" as France and Britain, where the elite was one-cultural.
So, in fact there were similarities between Russian And Austrian Empires. And both were not ideal.
In Austria, for it was a catholic country, was much more trials of blood libel. Because it was mostly the catholics, who believed that Jews kill Christian kids. In Russia we had one idiotical, absurd process during Nicolas II times, but in Austria there were more blood libel trials than in Russia.
So, again, sometimes catholics and Western people in general were no less obscurants and reactionaries than Orthodox.
And again, Russian culture and Russian elite were Western from the times of Peter I or even from 17th century.
In 17th century our culture had Polish (in literature) and maybe Italian influences (Italians worked as architectors).
In 18th-19th centruries our culture had German and French influences. And even English influence (George Gordon Byron).
So, in fact Russian are themselves a part of Western Civilisation. We have only little common with Greeks and there were no Greek influence in the last centuries.
Greeks for example did not have classical music in 19th century. And we had Tchaikovsky and other composers. So, we were more "Western" than them.
Because classical music and symphonic orchestras are Western phenomena.
Well, you can say that it was only the elite that was Western in Russia. And peasants were not. Well, but in some other countries there was also a big difference between peasants and elites. In Baltic countries the elite was German, not local. And I doubt that they thought about their peasants as equals.
Last edited by Muscovite; 10-23-2013 at 04:28 AM..
So, I mentioned Tchaikovsky and such phenomenon as classical music to prove that we were more Western in 19th century than Greeks.
And in 17th century there was a great Polish influence on Russian literature.
From 18th century the culture of our nobles was Western absolutely.
Sure, we had Byzantium influence in Ancient Russia. But the reason was that Byzantium was much more cultured at that time. And so were Russian nobles in 11th century.
It's a well-known fact that a Russian princess, who married king Henri I of France was very literate and astonished her French husband and other people by her perfect knowledge of Greek, Latin and medicine.
So, if we chose Greek culture in 10th century, the reason was only that it was better choice.
And at last from 17th century Russia oriented itself on Western-European culture. At first, on Polish culture in 17th c. and then, in 18th and 19th centuries, on German and French.
And there were no serious Greek influence on Russia from 18 century.
And even before that, Russians thought about Western Europe, not Greece. When Ivan the Terrible had some plans about immigrating somewhere, which country Ivan chose to immigrate?
The answer is that Ivan had plans to immigrate to England! He was not interested in Greece at all!
Are you serious? Do you think that Latin alphabet was invented to be compatible with Germanic languages? In fact Latin alphabet is no less compatible with German than with Czech. And I can assure you that the Czech version of Latin alphabet (yes every western nation has his own version of Latin alphabet) is perfectly compatible with needs of Czech language.
You can keep on assuring me all you want, but the fact remains; if you find some old grandpa in remote Russian village, who is not familiar with Latin alphabet, he'll not understand either written German or written Czech. If you spell both texts in Cyrillic however, then German will still look like abracadabra to him, while he'll start recognizing familiar words and phrases in Czech spelled in Cyrillic.
Quote:
Czechs have never written Cyrilics, which was after all created through Greek-Byzantine influence.
That's what you'd like to believe, but look here;
"Around 60 BC the Celtic Volcae people withdrew from the region and were succeeded in turn by the Germanic Quadi. Several hundred years later, in the 6th century AD the Slavic tribes arrived in this territory often crossed during the Migration Period by successive Germanic and major Slavic tribes."
So even here the acceptance of Western ( i.e. Roman church) didn't come to Czechs through their own will, but rather through the German domination, where Russians were making choices of their own will, and choices were made based on purely economic reasons. They were the ones who declined the offer to join Roman Church, not the other way around.
So basically when you look into history of Czech lands, be that Lusatia, Moravia or Bohemia - you'll see German print all over the place.
That's why I've said that throughout history Czechs were in the shadow of more dominant Western nation - i.e. Germans, who exercised their power over Czechs in different degree throughout history. So the reason why Czechs are perceived as "Easterners," (meaning being Slavs,) and not the equal players in history of Western Europe, goes back in times and it doesn't just start with the period of Soviet occupation.
You can keep on assuring me all you want, but the fact remains; if you find some old grandpa in remote Russian village, who is not familiar with Latin alphabet, he'll not understand either written German or written Czech. If you spell both texts in Cyrillic however, then German will still look like abracadabra to him, while he'll start recognizing familiar words and phrases in Czech spelled in Cyrillic.
That's what you'd like to believe, but look here;
"Around 60 BC the Celtic Volcae people withdrew from the region and were succeeded in turn by the Germanic Quadi. Several hundred years later, in the 6th century AD the Slavic tribes arrived in this territory often crossed during the Migration Period by successive Germanic and major Slavic tribes. At the end of the 8th century the Moravian Principality came into being in present-day south-eastern Moravia, Záhorie in south-western Slovakia and parts of Lower Austria. In 833 AD, this became the state of Great Moravia[11] with the conquest of the Principality of Nitra (present-day Slovakia). Their first king was MojmÃr I (ruled 830–846). Louis the German invaded Moravia and replaced MojmÃr I with his nephew Rastiz who became St. Rastislav.[12] St. Rastislav (846–870) tried to emancipate his land from the Carolingian influence, so he sent envoys to Rome to get missionaries to come. When Rome refused he turned to Constantinople to the Byzantine emperor Michael. The result was the mission of Saints Cyril and Methodius who translated liturgical books into Slavonic, which had lately been elevated by the Pope to the same level as Latin and Greek. Methodius became the first Moravian archbishop, but after his death the German influence again prevailed and the disciples of Methodius were forced to flee."
So even here the acceptance of Western ( i.e. Roman church) didn't come to Czechs through their own will, but rather through the German domination, where Russians were making choices of their own will, and choices were made based on purely economic reasons. They were the ones who declined the offer to join Roman Church, not the other way around.
So basically when you look into history of Czech lands, be that Lusatia, Moravia or Bohemia - you'll see German print all over the place.
That's why I've said that throughout history Czechs were in the shadow of more dominant Western nation - i.e. Germans, who exercised their power over Czechs in different degree throughout history. So the reason why Czechs are perceived as "Easterners," (meaning being Slavs,) and not the equal players in history of Western Europe, goes back in times and it doesn't just start with the period of Soviet occupation.
Bro.... you need to actually connect the conclusion with what youre saying for it to make sense. All I see you saying is that Moravia, unlike the bunch of random German tribes surrounding it, had already its own sovereign land, thus showing its great cultural heritage, very rare for such a small country. Furthermore they continued ever since to develop as a part of western europe, mutually influencing other western european regions (such as the various germanic tribes).
Just an fyi, Louis the German is called that because the territory he ruled over included mostly Germanic tribes, not because he was actually German........
Last edited by FrankCostello; 10-23-2013 at 09:23 PM..
Yes, indeed, in Sazavsky Monastery they used Old-Slavonic language till 12th century.
And in fact, in 19th century some Czechs, unlike Mikkartel, tried to look LESS German, not more German.
Czech langauge had less borrowings from other languages, because Czech linguists tried to de-germanise and de-latinise it.
E.g. in Czech language they have "hudba" instead of "musica". And so on.
Well, I am still do not understand, why Mikkartel is so anxious that someone do not know the difference between Russians and Czechs.
1. Czechs are catholic or lutheran and Russian are orthodox.
2. Czechs were the part of Austrian-Hungarian Empire. And in Middle Ages their kings had a crown of Holy Roman Emire for some time.
3. Russians have their own Empire (which I must say, made nothing against Czechs in 18th-19th centuries).
4. After 1945 Czechoslovakia and other Central or Eastern European countries became a part of Socialistic bloc, which was ruled by the USSR.
5. Some people, especially of working class origin, entered the communistic parties of Czechoslovakia and Poland, because for them it was a chance to make a carrier.
6. At first some people in these countries hoped that the regimes would not be so bad, besides both Czech and Polish people were more against Germans at that time.
Again it is a fact: after 1945 lots of Polish and Czechs were more anxiuous that Germans became powerful again, and so they were more afraid of Germany than of Russia.
7. But the regime was found to be very opressive. Though, unfortunately, local politics also participated in some intrigues.
So, Rudolf Slansky for example was a victim not only of Soviet politics, but also the victim of local intrigues between him and Klement Gottwald.
I'd like to add that I myself is quite young: when Berlin Wall falls I was a child.
Central European countries are free for two decades. And I believe that the majority of literate people at last in Russia, Austria or Germany, know about all historian differences between Czechs and Russians, and do not mix them.
So, I really do not understand, why Mikkartel is so anxoius that someone will mix Russians and Czechs. We all know our history.
Maybe in the USA some people do not know Central European history, but it's natural, for they live on the other continent. I also have very aprroximate knowledge of the history of the USA, because I am not American, so I have been more interested in European history than in American. It's kinda natural.
Last edited by Muscovite; 10-24-2013 at 02:00 AM..
So even here the acceptance of Western ( i.e. Roman church) didn't come to Czechs through their own will, but rather through the German domination, where Russians were making choices of their own will, and choices were made based on purely economic reasons. They were the ones who declined the offer to join Roman Church, not the other way around.
So basically when you look into history of Czech lands, be that Lusatia, Moravia or Bohemia - you'll see German print all over the place.
That's why I've said that throughout history Czechs were in the shadow of more dominant Western nation - i.e. Germans, who exercised their power over Czechs in different degree throughout history. So the reason why Czechs are perceived as "Easterners," (meaning being Slavs,) and not the equal players in history of Western Europe, goes back in times and it doesn't just start with the period of Soviet occupation.
After death of Methodius his followers were forced to leave Moravia by the Moravian ruler Svatopluk. It happened chiefly because of many previous disputes between Methodius and Svatopluk. Than Svatopluk began to prefer Frankish clergy and their exponent Wiching. But even then Svatopluk waged wars against Frankish empire.
As for Bohemia, it was duke Spytihněv I. who accepted his domain as fiefdom of eastern Frankish king Arnulf. It was in order to escape from domination of Greater Moravia.
Holly Roman Empire was just loose confederation of de facto independent states. Emperor had no right to influence who will be king of Bohemia (Look at Golden Bull of Sicily). On the other hand, king of Bohemia (as a Prince-elector) had very real chance to influence who will be emperor. Yet he was not considered (at least according to the most important law book of the German Middle Ages, so called "Sachsenspiegel") to be German!
Czech was the only official language of Bohemia as late as 1627. Bohemian nobility ceased to speak Czech at the first half of 18th century (such highly ranked nobles as Humprecht Jan ČernÃn, Heřman Jakub ČernÃn, Václav Norbert Oktavián Kinský, Filip Josef Kinský, ect. spoke regularly Czech).
Czechs were surely in the second half of 18th century and for the better part of 19th century in the shadow of more dominant culture. But this does not make them Easterners! Many western nations were in the shadow of more dominant cultures and this fact does not disqualified them from Western civilization. For all of their history (tell me where Finnish nobility spoke Finnish) until 19th century the Finns were in the shadow of Swedes. Basque have been for most of their history in the shadow of Spaniards. Maltese used to be in the shadow of Italians and then in the shadow of Brits. As for Maltese I bet if Libyan, Tunisian or Algerian saw Maltese language in Arabic script, he would be at least partially familiar with this language. If he saw Italian or English in Arabic script it would bee abracadabra:-).
So Finns, Basques or Maltese speak neither Germanic nor Romance language, they were for the most part of their history in the shadow of more dominant culture, and at least Maltese speak language which is relative to language of absolutely non-western culture. Yet every reasonable person consider these nations to be part of West! So there is NO reason to disqualify Czechs from Western World. To be Slav does not mean to be Easterner!
Last edited by Mikkarter; 10-24-2013 at 01:41 PM..
And there is no real reason for saying that Russians are "Easterners" also. We are Christians, not Muslims. Our nobles and other cultured people (just remember that Lomonosov was a peasant and then became an academian) was Western by cultury, deeply assimilated this coulture intheir souls and mind, especially German and French culture.
Our architecture in Saint-Petersburg is absolutely Western. And it was Saint-Petersburg that was a capital of Russia, not Kazan or Ufa!
In 19th century we had classical music, ballet and symphonic orchestras - predominantely Western phenomena - and even Greeks did not have them at that time.
Even in 17th century we were more connected with Western European countries, than with Greece.
And in 19th century our emperors married Danish or German princesses, not Greek.
And the main reason for us to chose Byzantium originally was that Byzantium at that time were much more prosperous and much more educated place than Western Europe. But it was a long time ago, and our modern culture, our literature of 18-20th centuries, our music, etc. has no connections with Greece.
Besides, the conception of the "East" vs "West" is a rudiment of the era of colonisation.
There is no "East". There are 3 different civilasations (with a long history and with high and ancient culture): Middle-Eastern, Indian and Chinese-Japanese-Corean. These civilisations were absolutely different. And in many ways more advanced than European civilisation was before 18th century.
Again it is a fact: after 1945 lots of Polish and Czechs were more anxiuous that Germans became powerful again, and so they were more afraid of Germany than of Russia.
I can't agree with it. Poland has difficult history with both Germany and Russia but in 1945 a enormous majority of Poles was more afraid of Russia than of Germany.
This sentiment was based on multiple reasons:
1. Although Germans were more cruel to Poles during the war, they have at least had decency to declare us a war. Soviet Union, on the other half, has invaded Eastern Poland without any official notice, or, in fact, with a notice saying they've entered Poland to 'protect Ukrainians and Belorussians who live in Poland'.
2. Polish history is very tied to the so-called Kresy Wschodnie. Even today, almost all national literature our children learn in school was written there. Two major centers of Polish culture with two most important Polish universities were located in Kresy - Lwów (today Lviv, Ukraine) and Wilno (today Vilnus, the capital of Lithuania). Powerful Soviet Union threated those cities and, as we can see today, Stalin indeed took those land from Poland.
3. Although Germans had their Sonderfahndungsbuch Polen (lists of Poles meant to be eliminated as soon as possible), it was the Soviets who hurt Polish elites the most. Over 20,000 members of Polish elite were eliminated in Katyn massacre alone.
4. If anyone has ever had any hopes about Soviet Union, he or she definitely lost it during Warsaw Uprising. When the uprising begun, Soviet forces were in the suburbs of Warsaw and people of the Polish capital hoped Red Army will help them fight Germans. But Stalin ordered their Army to stop, so that Warsaw could bleed itself. Western allies tried to help Warsaw by sending ammunition, medications and food by air but it was limited, as Stalin didn't allow Western planes to land on Soviet airports.
In the end of war Poles had no illusions about Soviets. Polish elites started Operation Tempest to prevent Soviets from taking authority in Polish cities but the silent police pacified them.
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