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I agree with you. But:
1. Don't forget that Hitler did not win the war. If he won, he would do worsest things and Germans do not treat Polish people as equals, no, they were Untermenshen for them.
2. Well. Lithuanian people also wanted Vilnus to be their city. So, it was a conflict not only beetween Russia and Poland, but between Russia and Lithuania. Lithuanians were very anti-Polish in discussions with the Soviet leaders and even demand more discrimination of Polish people.
3. West Ukrainians hated Poland no less than Russia. So, yes the USSR annexeted them against their will. But they had no will to stay in Poland.
And there is no real reason for saying that Russians are "Easterners" also. We are Christians, not Muslims. Our nobles and other cultured people (just remember that Lomonosov was a peasant and then became an academian) was Western by cultury, deeply assimilated this coulture intheir souls and mind, especially German and French culture.
Our architecture in Saint-Petersburg is absolutely Western. And it was Saint-Petersburg that was a capital of Russia, not Kazan or Ufa!
In 19th century we had classical music, ballet and symphonic orchestras - predominantely Western phenomena - and even Greeks did not have them at that time.
Even in 17th century we were more connected with Western European countries, than with Greece.
And in 19th century our emperors married Danish or German princesses, not Greek.
And the main reason for us to chose Byzantium originally was that Byzantium at that time were much more prosperous and much more educated place than Western Europe. But it was a long time ago, and our modern culture, our literature of 18-20th centuries, our music, etc. has no connections with Greece.
Besides, the conception of the "East" vs "West" is a rudiment of the era of colonisation.
There is no "East". There are 3 different civilasations (with a long history and with high and ancient culture): Middle-Eastern, Indian and Chinese-Japanese-Corean. These civilisations were absolutely different. And in many ways more advanced than European civilisation was before 18th century.
Of course Russians are "easterners" ( as in "Eastern Europeans.") And of course Russia is different in many ways from Western Europe. You are right however, that from the 17th century on, Russian nobility ( and later Russian intelligentsia) were thoroughly *Westernized.* The problem is, I've noticed though, that quite often Russian intelligentsia has tendency to project its own *europeannes * ( if there is such word, lol) on the rest of Russian population, which is basically wrong thing to do. *Russian people* overall have quite few differences with Western European nations, however that doesn't prevent Russian art and literature to be all the same - European.
I can't agree with it. Poland has difficult history with both Germany and Russia but in 1945 a enormous majority of Poles was more afraid of Russia than of Germany.
This sentiment was based on multiple reasons:
1. Although Germans were more cruel to Poles during the war, they have at least had decency to declare us a war. Soviet Union, on the other half, has invaded Eastern Poland without any official notice, or, in fact, with a notice saying they've entered Poland to 'protect Ukrainians and Belorussians who live in Poland'.
2. Polish history is very tied to the so-called Kresy Wschodnie. Even today, almost all national literature our children learn in school was written there. Two major centers of Polish culture with two most important Polish universities were located in Kresy - Lwów (today Lviv, Ukraine) and Wilno (today Vilnus, the capital of Lithuania). Powerful Soviet Union threated those cities and, as we can see today, Stalin indeed took those land from Poland.
So you are going back to the times of Greater Polish-Lithuanian state, however accidentally those were the times where at its peak this particular state was trying to claim even Russian throne. The point is - starting from those times (if not earlier,) whenever Russia is experiencing internal difficulties and going through turmoil, it's Poland that usually steps up its effort to expand her territories and in attempt to bring back its old might at Russia's expense. So obviously the relations between these two can't be all that good, in spite of shared genetics.
And if you are talking about "Vilnus that rightfully belonged to Poland" before the WWII - have another look at situation, because these were not the times of Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth any longer, and Lithuania was claiming this city as well.
Although Germans had their Sonderfahndungsbuch Polen (lists of Poles meant to be eliminated as soon as possible), it was the Soviets who hurt Polish elites the most. Over 20,000 members of Polish elite were eliminated in Katyn massacre alone.
You are missing the point. Germans didn't just had some "lists of Poles to be eliminated," they wanted Poles to be eliminated as ethnic group period, in the same manner as they wanted to eliminate Russians. Russians on another hand wanted Poles to be their vassal state ( that's what Stalin had in mind, I suppose) and Russian kings earlier wanted Poles to be just another ethnic group included in their Empire. So Stalin was following his bottom line - he wanted to eliminate potential disobedience; those 20,000 members of Polish elite eliminated in Katyn were Polish Army officers first of all. Bottom line is - if Germans would have won that war, Poles would have ceased to exist as a nation, but since Russians have won the war, Poland is still around alive and well; you typing posts on this forum serves as a valid proof.
Quote:
4. If anyone has ever had any hopes about Soviet Union, he or she definitely lost it during Warsaw Uprising. When the uprising begun, Soviet forces were in the suburbs of Warsaw and people of the Polish capital hoped Red Army will help them fight Germans. But Stalin ordered their Army to stop, so that Warsaw could bleed itself. Western allies tried to help Warsaw by sending ammunition, medications and food by air but it was limited, as Stalin didn't allow Western planes to land on Soviet airports.
In the end of war Poles had no illusions about Soviets. Polish elites started Operation Tempest to prevent Soviets from taking authority in Polish cities but the silent police pacified them.
What "hopes" and what "illusions" fer Christs sake?
Let's look at main Polish objectives for operation Tempest;
"The uprising began on 1 August 1944, as part of a nationwide plan, Operation Tempest, when the Soviet Army approached Warsaw. The main Polish objectives were to drive the German occupiers from the city and help with the larger fight against Germany and the Axis powers. Secondary political objectives were to liberate Warsaw before the Soviets, to underscore Polish sovereignty by empowering the Polish Underground State before the Soviet-backed Polish Committee of National Liberation could assume control."
Now why someone like Stalin would have been sympathetic to such objections? Is it why
he was not sparing lives of millions of his soldiers, throwing them in the battles over and over again - just to "underscore Polish sovereignty?" The authoritarian, who was at the brink of destruction at the beginning of this war, and who was now watching out for his state's ( and his own) interests first of all?
"Liberation of Warsaw before the Soviets" - yeah, right.
Saying that Poles had imperialistic leanings towards Russia, or URRS..during the XXth Century..a little far fetched...
You are right, Germans wanted to annihilate Slavs, extremely idiotic since they are partially Slavic. Had he allowed Russians to join his army, not partially or just a few, story would have been different.
And yes, Stalin did that intentionally...he allowed Germans to kill all Polish resistance while awaiting "ad portas" in Warsaw....Stalin's orders.. He was already thinking in the future.
szyy
Maybe I was not correct, when I said that "1945 the Poles and Czechs were more afraid of Germany than of Russia". They did not have sociological polls then and there.
But Poles might have very concrete reasons to be afraid that Germany would became powerful in 10 years again. I suppose, Poles did not wanted Germans to occupy Eastern Prussia again. And the image of Germany as a superpower still lived in their heads and Stalin supported these anxieties and he also used some pan-slavic and "special way of Eastern Europe to communism" demagogy.
In 1 September 1939 not only the USSR invaded Poland without the announcement of the war, but German battleship "Schlesswig-Holstein" attacked Poland also WITHOUT any loud announcements.
So, Poland became a part of Soviet bloc unwillingly, but after the Allies did nothing to open the Second Front earlier all their attempts to "help" Poland in 1945 were hypocritical.
In 1945 they were not interested in the destiny of the Poles. They were just anxious that Stalin would have more power. But it was an easy way to prevent it (and to save the lives of Russia soldiers, because it was Russian soldires, who were killed during the war, not Stalin and Mooltov who were prretty safe). This way is to open Second Front earlier.
And there was a typical dialog between Stalin and Roosevelt in 1945. They discussed the annexion of Lithuania. Roosevelt cared only about his elections and told Stalin that he is afraid that Lithuanian community in the USA can vote against him, so Roosevelt asked Stalin to be more politically correct in this annexion. But he was not against the incorporation of Lithuania to Soviet Union itself.
Kresy were nor ethnically Polish, neither Russian. Russian Empire had no less rights for Ukraine and Belarus than Poland. Poland had rights because these countries were parts of Poland for several centuries. Russian Empire had rights, because Ukraine was originally ruled by Rurikovitch dinasty, was a part of Kieval Russia and because Bogdan Khmelnytsky willingly became a vassal of Russian Tsar.
Now they are politically independent and they should stay so.
And Ukrainians show that they had no desire to stay in Poland by commiting the Massacre in Volhynia (Rzeź wołyńska).
I've said about Rzeź wołyńska in the previous post.
Finally I'd like to quote a wel-know person - Claus Graf von Stauffenberg (Tom Cruise acted him a Hollywood movie).
So his (Stauggenberg's, not Tom Cruise's) letter to his wife form Poland:
Quote:
People here is unbelievable riffraf. These people feel themsleves good when they are lashed with a knout.
-P. Hoffmann. Stauffenberg: a family history, 1905—1944
We should remember the crimes commited by the USSR, inlcuding Katyn, but I am afraid that modern Poles may sometimes make an error off mixing the contemporary positive and good Germans and the rude and awful Germany of 1930s-1940s.
They remember that they were unwillingly incorporated to Soviet bloc (though, despite the fact that it was unwillingly, lots of people indeed got the membership in the Communistic Party of Poland), but maybe sometimes they tend to forget the trth about Naz Germany.
And it seems to me that the Massacre in Volhynia (Rzeź wołyńska) commited by Western Ukrainians is strangely concealed sometimes in contemporary Poland to present the relationship between th two nations in more idealised way.
1. Don't forget that Hitler did not win the war. If he won, he would do worsest things and Germans do not treat Polish people as equals, no, they were Untermenshen for them.
2. Well. Lithuanian people also wanted Vilnus to be their city. So, it was a conflict not only beetween Russia and Poland, but between Russia and Lithuania. Lithuanians were very anti-Polish in discussions with the Soviet leaders and even demand more discrimination of Polish people.
3. West Ukrainians hated Poland no less than Russia. So, yes the USSR annexeted them against their will. But they had no will to stay in Poland.
1. This was true but another interesting fact is that in his message to Himmler on March 4, 1944 Hitler wrote that Polish spirit is extremely precious, so that Germans should start marrying Poles because, in Hitler's opinion, that mix would create a perfect man. Anyway, Nazis were persecuting Poles during IIWW.
2. I am not surprised. Piłsudski made them look like a fool after First World War, I would be pissed off too.
3. As you mentioned, they had no intention of staying in the USSR either
szyy
It seems to me that Hitler sometimes was unsteady in his racistic theories. Nazi kidnapped several children in Belarus, for example, to raise them as Germans.
And Nazi even pretended to believe for some time that Cosacasks were descendants of Goths, which sounds rather strange.
I read somewhere that some relatives of the victims of the Massacre in Volhynia urged the previous Polish government (not the current one, but the previous) to be more active in reminding about that problem, but the government was not much enthusiastic, because they did not want to quarell with pro-USA Ukranian president Uschenko. Or something like that. Maybe I was misinformed.
Anyway, I think that the current president of Poland, Tusk is a great guy (despite his opponents' attempts to criticise his grandfather).
Several years ago our government had some ideas to speculate on the facts of Wielka Smuta (1598-1613) and on the fact that Red Army soldiers, who were brainwashed by Bolsheviks, were treated badly in Polish camps after the war of 1919-1921.
Luckily, our government stopped these idiotical attempts, after no one really took them seriously.
They even let the film about Katyn to be shown on Russian TV.
Anyway, Poland is Poland and Czechia is Czechia. We had no coflicts with Czechia before 1945. And I still do not uderstand why Mikkartel was so upset.
This all is just Hitlers racistic work.
Czech never was "eastern country" (just a few years under the soviets occupation, but it's the same as if you would say that France is nazi country because of the occupation by the germans)
For all the history (more than thousand of years) the czech land was a part of western civilisation.
You can't put them into the box "east" just because the US president and Stalin decided it will be the soviets area.
I think that the only reason why the czech republic is taken as "East" is that they are slavic nation. "Not clear germans what has a right to call them "western Europeans"
As the Hitler wanted that.
Everybody who say that this country is the east probably trust to this nazi ****s...
Open your eyes guys. Visit the Prague. It's like Paris, Vienna, London...
Than visit Ukraine. And you will understand why Czech Republic isn't the "eastern country"
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And of course Russia is different in many ways from Western Europe. You are right however, that from the 17th century on, Russian nobility ( and later Russian intelligentsia) were thoroughly *Westernized.* The problem is, I've noticed though, that quite often Russian intelligentsia has tendency to project its own *europeannes * ( if there is such word, lol) on the rest of Russian population, which is basically wrong thing to do. *Russian people* overall have quite few differences with Western European nations, however that doesn't prevent Russian art and literature to be all the same - European.
Is it why 
