Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I wouldn't put much emphasis on that wikitravel article. There is no such thing as "Commonwealth English". The various dialects of English spoken throughout "Commonwealth nations" are extremely varied, and they are no closer to each other or British English, than they are to US or any other dialect of the language.
It doesn't matter how much territory the British Empire controlled (much of that quarter being sparsely populated Canada and Australia); what matters is the cultural influence enjoyed by a country. During the time that Britain controlled a quarter of the world, French was the lingua franca, because France enjoyed a disproportionate level of cultural influence around the globe. This is why English became so heavily inundated with French vocabulary during this time period, and why the center of fashion, letters, and culture was Paris. In the European context, even German was more far more likely to be used than English; especially in the fields of science and technology.
If you enter the field of history and work with documents from the late 19th century, you will see this first hand. English was only a lingua franca between the territories controlled by Britain; French was the lingua franca in regions where French troops never set a foot. I have worked with several Victorian-era documents written by Germans and Russians which have been written in French, despite the fact that the readers would be other Germans and Russians. How often would a German or Russian write a letter to one of his countrymen in English? Never. Until the rise of the United States, that is.
English did not become the lingua franca until the dismemberment of the British Empire and the assertion of superpower status by the United States. In other words, the rise of English as a lingua franca directly correlates with the rise of the United States, and the fall of the British Empire. Did the British Empire help facilitate the spread of the English language? Absolutely. But it is not the reason why students in China, Brazil, and Russia are learning English right now over French.
Britain WAS leading the world BOTH scientifically AND culturally in the Victorian age, the Industrial Revolution happened in Britain, it led the world in invention and culture, tell me what this French culture is you are talking about that was so dominant? You claim the Chinese learn ENGLISH because of the US like the language is a US invention, it isnt , the language you speak is ENGLISH not American, you speak it because of the British Empire, the Chinese speak it because of the British Empire. Whatever the reason is people think that English is spoken at the end of the day the language is ENGLISH not Dutch, German, Australian or American! Its self explanatory really isn't it!?? Are you the sort of American that likes to claim that the US also gave the world Pizza, cars or even computers!!
He doesn't claim that the US gave the world the English language, he claims that the US made it the lingua franca of the World, being the most powerful country, economically and culturally. Not many people in Europe spoke English during the Victorian era, it started to spread as a second language in the mid 20th century, when Britain's best years were behind it. Had Spain or France colonized most of North America, the global language most likely wouldn't be English.
There is a practical side to all this. English is currently the international language just as French was at one time, and Greek was in the far past. The practical side is that, for example, pilots will speak to each other and to control towers (at least in countries where their native language isn't spoken) in English. Ships will communicate in English.
Think about what the consequences could potentially be if there was not one language for them to communicate in whether that language be English, or some other language. and, I'm sure that at some point of time in the future English will be replaced by another language just as Greek and French were.
Britain WAS leading the world BOTH scientifically AND culturally in the Victorian age, the Industrial Revolution happened in Britain, it led the world in invention and culture, tell me what this French culture is you are talking about that was so dominant? You claim the Chinese learn ENGLISH because of the US like the language is a US invention, it isnt , the language you speak is ENGLISH not American, you speak it because of the British Empire, the Chinese speak it because of the British Empire. Whatever the reason is people think that English is spoken at the end of the day the language is ENGLISH not Dutch, German, Australian or American! Its self explanatory really isn't it!?? Are you the sort of American that likes to claim that the US also gave the world Pizza, cars or even computers!!
Culturally not that much, to be honest.
Although important, France saw much greater literary and artistic masterpieces (Impressionists, Rodin, Gustave Flaubert, Stendhal, Dumas, etc) than Britain.
Plus, from 1870's onward, Britain started see her industrial power decling towards Russia, Germany and US (less France), in those years Germany literally invented and created the modern chemistry (the German list of Nobel prizes in chemistry is rather impressive).
Sure, the British Empire exported English in the Empire, but even considering the enormous British Empire, English wasn't the Lingua Franca, French was as important as English in INTERNATIONAL communication.
With the rise of US, with the advent of radio and then TV and with the massive influence of the US, English became the lingua franca used everywhere.
He doesn't claim that the US gave the world the English language, he claims that the US made it the lingua franca of the World, being the most powerful country, economically and culturally. Not many people in Europe spoke English during the Victorian era, it started to spread as a second language in the mid 20th century, when Britain's best years were behind it. Had Spain or France colonized most of North America, the global language most likely wouldn't be English.
Yes, thank you for clearing that up. In the future I will try to write more clearly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xander.XVII
Culturally not that much, to be honest.
Although important, France saw much greater literary and artistic masterpieces (Impressionists, Rodin, Gustave Flaubert, Stendhal, Dumas, etc) than Britain.
Plus, from 1870's onward, Britain started see her industrial power decling towards Russia, Germany and US (less France), in those years Germany literally invented and created the modern chemistry (the German list of Nobel prizes in chemistry is rather impressive).
Sure, the British Empire exported English in the Empire, but even considering the enormous British Empire, English wasn't the Lingua Franca, French was as important as English in INTERNATIONAL communication.
With the rise of US, with the advent of radio and then TV and with the massive influence of the US, English became the lingua franca used everywhere.
Well said, Xander. This is a very accurate historical overview. I'd also like to add that not only did Britain see her industrial power decline relative to the US, Germany, Russia, and others, but by 1880 the US alone had overtaken the British Empire as the world's largest economy. At the same time, Germany had a larger economy than Britain proper, and her industrial might was rapidly expanding. Economics aside, the British Empire still didn't match the cultural influence of France, as made evident by French being the lingua franca during the aforementioned time period.
I wouldn't put much emphasis on that wikitravel article. There is no such thing as "Commonwealth English". The various dialects of English spoken throughout "Commonwealth nations" are extremely varied, and they are no closer to each other or British English, than they are to US or any other dialect of the language.
Not to mention that it lists several inaccuracies, and none of the sections cite references. It's also curious that Australian English is nowhere to be found.
He doesn't claim that the US gave the world the English language, he claims that the US made it the lingua franca of the World, being the most powerful country, economically and culturally. Not many people in Europe spoke English during the Victorian era, it started to spread as a second language in the mid 20th century, when Britain's best years were behind it. Had Spain or France colonized most of North America, the global language most likely wouldn't be English.
Make sense, though the fact that that the UK was also an important country with large international ties helped. It must mean something that the English learned internationally (say UN spelling conventions or what's learned in most Eastern Hemisphere countries) is more often British English.
I think a situation where a old lady gets robbed is a little different from wars that happened in the 1500s
I don't think so. The US is based on the theft of land through war and genocide. Don't think that the world will ever forget that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj
I'd argue that the accent of second language speakers is extremely difficult to classify as British or American. What I hear from non-native English speakers is a simply foreign accent. They rarely sound British or American because their proficiency in English is rarely developed enough to resemble the accent of a native speaker. Instead, they tend to sound like a Chinese, Nigerian, or Dutchman speaking English.
As for one being regarded as superior to the other, this is also highly debatable. The East Asians countries which are interested in economic and scientific advancement have developed a steady demand for American teachers, and even financially-oriented former British colonies like Singapore are considering switching their teaching to American English. Additionally, I'd argue that a young adult Norwegian or Russian interested in American movies, music and fashion naturally gravitates toward American English. Some are simply more attracted to what is cool, useful, or modern rather than what is sophisticated. It is not uncommon for foreigners to comment the American English accent sounds "standard"; I think that this is indicative of how inundated with American culture much of the world is.
Usually I do hear whether a non-native speaker is emulating British or American English. There are a couple of phonemes that make the difference, like the retroflex r.
I prefer American English because it is simply easier to understand. At the same time I have a certain aversion against that sound, like many people to whom American English sounds a bit vulgar, cheap, and/or obtrusive. Hard to describe...
It's like with Portuguese, again. Brazilian can have the same attributes I just listed, but it is much easier to understand than the European one.
I don't really like the sound British English, either, though. It sounds hard and chopped to my ears.
Actually, I don't like English as a whole, but it is useful and I make a living on it
I don't think so. The US is based on the theft of land through war and genocide. Don't think that the world will ever forget that...
Like it matters what the world thinks
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
