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For federal republics like Germany, it currently has 16 states. It can simply enter the Superstate as 16 states as the first level administrative division.
For centralized republics like France, it can enter the Superstate simply as one entity. If adding an additional level of government is bad, it can remove the next level of government, so for France, the current first level-administrative division of 27 regions can be removed like this:
Originally: France -> 27 regions -> 101 departments
Superstate: Superstate -> State of France -> 101 departments
Quote:
Originally Posted by pigeonhole
By integrating into a single nation, the European superstate will at least remain as a global superpower
Most Europeans couldn't care less becoming a "global superpower". Maybe that kind of imperial dreams turn on some neocons in Washington, but not most of the populations on the planet, European or not. And besides : there is no European "Manifest Destiny". Europeans are not destined by the Allmighty to remain forever the dominating powers and the Masters of the World. As you stated yourself, "times they are 'a changin'"...and more and more Europeans are getting weary of the alienating consumer society and of the rat race, and are more into "small is beautiful"....
I've not finished reading this whole thread yet but I find all of this, well...intriguing. I personally am not sure if Europe will ever federalize. It was mentioned that Europe is not the USA. True. One, Europe's population is declining but the USA's is increasing. if Europe does become one country along the lines of the USA, it shouldn't be so far fetched to believe why that can happen. remember, the USA started as thirteen independent colonies which could have gone their separate ways. Instead, they decided to merge and form a new nation. A USE would form in much the same way with a few states joining at first. The issue was raised about the huge differences in the way current European countries are governed. While there are states in the USA that have different systems of law (Like Louisiana law being based on the French system rather than English common law), no state has monarchies and no state is a federal republic but all are unitary. European countries would first have to agree on systems that are at least similar enough to be governed under the same federal system. If such a USE were to happen along the same lines as the USA, the only country I can think of right away that's ready to become a state in a federal system like this is France. France is a centralized democracy with it's own constitution just like US states are. So far, the only other country with a model almost exactly like the USA is Mexico.
I'm not saying such a United States Of Europe is impossible, it certain is feasible. I just don't think it's desired but Europeans. As pigeonhole said, many people around the world, including here in the US are starting to adopt a smaller is better mentality. the world is becoming globalized more and more as far as trade etc. are concerned but much localized as far as how the see government.
To see our culture, our language, our traditions vanish. Eating mass- produced food with no taste, no chance for small buisenesses, economy dominated by uge massive corporations, every sub state producing only one thing, NO THANKS.
I like the idea of open borders, being able to move everywere you want, but that's all. But being one big superstate, no. We had a little taste of that, and it only brought us misery.
I'm allready wondering why i have to eat meat from argentinia whyle we have the best meat in our own country.
The farmer were i buy my hay for the horses came by last month telling he quit the farm cos he wasn't able to make enough money from it anymore. He had a 40+ hectare farm his whole life, wich is small, but twenty years ago was perfectly fine to feed a whole family and have a good live. Nowadays it's not even enough to feed one man.
I like to live in a small country, having our own identity. I like all the diversity in europe, lets keep it that way.
That's really sad that Europe is going through that now.
I've not finished reading this whole thread yet but I find all of this, well...intriguing. I personally am not sure if Europe will ever federalize. It was mentioned that Europe is not the USA. True. One, Europe's population is declining but the USA's is increasing. if Europe does become one country along the lines of the USA, it shouldn't be so far fetched to believe why that can happen. remember, the USA started as thirteen independent colonies which could have gone their separate ways. Instead, they decided to merge and form a new nation. A USE would form in much the same way with a few states joining at first. The issue was raised about the huge differences in the way current European countries are governed. While there are states in the USA that have different systems of law (Like Louisiana law being based on the French system rather than English common law), no state has monarchies and no state is a federal republic but all are unitary. European countries would first have to agree on systems that are at least similar enough to be governed under the same federal system. If such a USE were to happen along the same lines as the USA, the only country I can think of right away that's ready to become a state in a federal system like this is France. France is a centralized democracy with it's own constitution just like US states are. So far, the only other country with a model almost exactly like the USA is Mexico.
I'm not saying such a United States Of Europe is impossible, it certain is feasible. I just don't think it's desired but Europeans. As pigeonhole said, many people around the world, including here in the US are starting to adopt a smaller is better mentality. the world is becoming globalized more and more as far as trade etc. are concerned but much localized as far as how the see government.
You certainly have some good points here.
That said, I don't think that it is entirely fair to completely compare modern Europe to the Thirteen Colonies in the late 1780s and early 1790s. After all, unlike the Thirteen Colonies, Europe has many different languages and in addition, Europe is primarily composed of nation-states. Granted, these things can certainly change over time (once English becomes much more widespread throughout Europe and once Europe becomes much more diverse), though.
That said, I don't think that it is entirely fair to completely compare modern Europe to the Thirteen Colonies in the late 1780s and early 1790s. After all, unlike the Thirteen Colonies, Europe has many different languages and in addition, Europe is primarily composed of nation-states. Granted, these things can certainly change over time (once English becomes much more widespread throughout Europe and once Europe becomes much more diverse), though.
The comparison to the 13 colonies was for examining how different governments can come together. Europe has overcome any language barriers long ago so language would not be an issue. Yes, Europe is comprised of nation states each with widely varying systems of government and it was this I was trying to highlight. Merging any separate entities is no easy task regardless. Whether in this century or the 18th, Europe will face many of the same challenges the 13 colonies faced including; adopting a constitution and a system for member states to ratify it. Surrendering some of their power to the federal system while figuring out a way to maintain some sovereignty for the states which would share it with the federal system. A unified tax system, court system, banking system and in Europe's case the various health care systems in the various countries. But think about it, is Europe really ready for this? I think not. After all the smaller is better mentality is gaining ground:
The comparison to the 13 colonies was for examining how different governments can come together. Europe has overcome any language barriers long ago so language would not be an issue. Yes, Europe is comprised of nation states each with widely varying systems of government and it was this I was trying to highlight. Merging any separate entities is no easy task regardless. Whether in this century or the 18th, Europe will face many of the same challenges the 13 colonies faced including; adopting a constitution and a system for member states to ratify it. Surrendering some of their power to the federal system while figuring out a way to maintain some sovereignty for the states which would share it with the federal system. A unified tax system, court system, banking system and in Europe's case the various health care systems in the various countries. But think about it, is Europe really ready for this? I think not. After all the smaller is better mentality is gaining ground:
As you have said, the US didn't start with 50 states overnight… it started with 13 colonies. Those 13 colonies started to do well and was able to expand eventually to 50 states. This is the model I am trying to propagate for Europe.
1. Yes, and hopefully that will change in the future (especially after the U.S. cleans its act up in regards to certain things).
After all, how exactly is Canada supposed to stay relevant by itself when its population is going to be massively smaller than the population of many other countries by the end of the 21st century?
2. To be fair, couldn't one simply try modifying these treaties and policies instead?
For the record, I myself am not opposed to European unification under certain specific circumstances. I simply want all of the arguments to be presented here.
What you are saying is too far-fetched… maybe if we see North American Union represented at G20 and other international summits like the EU currently is, then we can start discussing the process of integration of Canada with the U.S. Canada doesn't lose out its position as quickly as the European countries. Canada itself is already a few times larger by area than the entire E.U. and it has vast amount of resources to allow Canada be competitive on its own internationally in the future. Its population growth is also higher than European countries.
Darling and Americans. When are yous going to learn that the UK does not equal England?
There are FOUR countries in the United Kingdom! Thats right you heard it FOUR!
Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England. We are not England and I can assure we do not want to be and we are certainly fed up of being called England.
Get that into your head!
So friggen fed up of that. Its as if our countries don't exist!
I hope you are not being serious. England has its own national football team.
It's clear how worthless the opinion of the common man really is here with their small mindedness and petty nationalism. If Europe wants to stay relevant and compete with China and the US they will have to start acting like one country. What do Euros want exactly, freedom and prosperity or more European wars LOL
We've allway done pretty well as the small country we are, we don't need to be a superstate at all when it comes to competing. We are allready the no1 biggest investor in the world. Surprice huh?
no1 the Netherlands with outgoing investments of 3700 billion and incoming 3000 billion
no2 united states with outgoing investments of 3500 billion and incoming 2300 billion
no3 luxembourg with outgoing investments of 1750 billion and incoming 1800 billion
So if you wanna talk competing, there's no need to become some kind of superstate. Small countries handle themselves pretty well on the world marked. Size does not matter at all
We allways had freedom and prosperity untill we started with the whole EU bullsh*t and the Euro. From that moment on, things went down the hill pretty fast. I allways was pro EU and pro Euro, but in all those years i haven't seen anything good come out of it.
So i for one don't give a rats *ss about competing. I'd rather have them invest all this money into our own country. Give all that jobs to our own people and buy products of our own farmers. We would have all we need, and could still help others were needed.
Personally, I believe it could happen but I sincerely hope it never does. My dream is to retire to Europe (Greece, France, Italy, or possibly Spain) and I don't want any of them losing their national character.
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