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Old 08-23-2022, 06:46 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,063 posts, read 106,870,458 times
Reputation: 115814

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
Hi. I rarely post in these threads because I'm a little tired of reading about zombified Russians and bad Putin .

Everything that you wrote cannot be a real goal, because Russia has its own black soil from Kuban to Orenburg, its own seaports in the Black Sea and gas pipelines through Turkey and northern Europe.

The problem with Ukraine began before Putin and will continue after him. This is a long historical process. Some politicians have pointed to this problem since the collapse of the Soviet Union, 30 years ago.

For example, Eduard Limonov, writer, politician:
1992
Well, the reason I mentioned a couple of those motives for the war (ok, I"ll cross off the one about Ukraine's rich soil) is, 1) wars quite often turn out to be about a resource grab, when all the propaganda is brushed aside, and 2) P stated once, that two topics that were part of the early negotiations were: guaranteeing safety for Russian shipping through the Azov Sea, and an end to Ukrainian sabotage of the flow of Russian natural gas through their territory. He said it, I didn't make it up.

Russia has ports around the mouth of the Don: Taganrog and Rostov-on-Don. Even if the ships try to avoid the Ukraine side by staying close to the Russia side of the sea, they still have to pass through the narrow straight formed by the tip of the Crimean Peninsula. And notice who now controls Crimea and the entire coastline of the Azov Sea. Clearly control of that straight and the entire coastline is important to Russia.
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Old 08-27-2022, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Russia
5,787 posts, read 4,150,701 times
Reputation: 1742
Quote:
Originally Posted by citoyen View Post
Same in the SS units of world war 2
It's strange that you don't see the difference.


https://i.ibb.co/TvvdFRS/photo-2022-08-26-10-50-52.jpg
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Old 08-27-2022, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Russia
5,787 posts, read 4,150,701 times
Reputation: 1742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Well, the reason I mentioned a couple of those motives for the war (ok, I"ll cross off the one about Ukraine's rich soil) is, 1) wars quite often turn out to be about a resource grab, when all the propaganda is brushed aside, and 2) P stated once, that two topics that were part of the early negotiations were: guaranteeing safety for Russian shipping through the Azov Sea, and an end to Ukrainian sabotage of the flow of Russian natural gas through their territory. He said it, I didn't make it up.

Russia has ports around the mouth of the Don: Taganrog and Rostov-on-Don. Even if the ships try to avoid the Ukraine side by staying close to the Russia side of the sea, they still have to pass through the narrow straight formed by the tip of the Crimean Peninsula. And notice who now controls Crimea and the entire coastline of the Azov Sea. Clearly control of that straight and the entire coastline is important to Russia.
These reasons are important, but the main reason is in Kyiv. Russia has not received security guarantees, so in the future Ukraine will be deprived of heavy weapons and the rights of Russians in Ukraine (several million people) will be protected. Demilitarization and denazification.
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Old 08-27-2022, 02:53 PM
 
5,257 posts, read 3,960,172 times
Reputation: 3468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
It's strange that you don't see the difference.

Well that kind of propaganda will only work in an american forum because according to american views the worst crime that can be committed is a crime against the jews - everything else is somehow allowed, "who cares about Hiroshima, the red terror, vietnam, spanish inquisition". Communism had killed more people in Russia and elsewhere, the Nazis didn't have the time but facts are facts.


edit: And if someone disagrees, them yanks will come up with some ugly unfunny jewish "comedian" aka Sasha Baron Cohen (ok he's british who cares...) who'll make an unfunny joke about you being "borat" and hating muslims/jews or whatever. I mean *****, covid, inflation and even the climate is destroying you - before making fun of others for being stupid buy a mirror and look in it and you'll be shocked to see you're the problem.
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Old 08-27-2022, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Russia
5,787 posts, read 4,150,701 times
Reputation: 1742
Quote:
Originally Posted by euro123 View Post
Well that kind of propaganda will only work in an american forum because according to american views the worst crime that can be committed is a crime against the jews - everything else is somehow allowed, "who cares about Hiroshima, the red terror, vietnam, spanish inquisition". Communism had killed more people in Russia and elsewhere, the Nazis didn't have the time but facts are facts.
Are you saying that the communists killed more than 20 million people in Russia, like the Nazis did in World War 2? Stop your stupidity. And by the way, this photo is not propaganda. Russians really don't like being compared to the Nazis. They don't like it very much. Because every family in Russia has suffered from this. And yes, the Russians did not create the Holocaust. Russians are historically a multicultural entity.
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Old 08-27-2022, 03:15 PM
 
5,257 posts, read 3,960,172 times
Reputation: 3468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
Are you saying that the communists killed more than 20 million people in Russia, like the Nazis did in World War 2? Stop your stupidity. And by the way, this photo is not propaganda. Russians really don't like being compared to the Nazis. They don't like it very much. Because every family in Russia has suffered from this. And yes, the Russians did not create the Holocaust. Russians are historically a multicultural entity.

USSR had time from 1917 to 1989 and this includes Holodomor + invasion in 1944 to europe. You can't seriously compare it to 6 million deaths.
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Old 08-27-2022, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Russia
5,787 posts, read 4,150,701 times
Reputation: 1742
Quote:
Originally Posted by euro123 View Post
USSR had time from 1917 to 1989 and this includes Holodomor + invasion in 1944 to europe. You can't seriously compare it to 6 million deaths.
"invasion in 1944 to europe"

To be honest, it's getting harder and harder to find reasons why I'm writing here. Everything will be decided by rockets and cannons on the battlefield.
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Old 08-27-2022, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Habsburg Lands of Old
906 posts, read 429,820 times
Reputation: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
Are you saying that the communists killed more than 20 million people in Russia, like the Nazis did in World War 2? Stop your stupidity. And by the way, this photo is not propaganda. Russians really don't like being compared to the Nazis. They don't like it very much. Because every family in Russia has suffered from this. And yes, the Russians did not create the Holocaust. Russians are historically a multicultural entity.

But surely you cannot deny the fact that the Soviet Union , as opposed to the Russian Federation which many people these days like to conflate it with , was one of the most brutal states to ever exist in terms of its overall body count ?

For the life of me I can't understand the weird downplaying of the Soviet Union's crimes by so many Russians , when it was precisely them who arguably suffered the most under said regime .

That's precisely part of the reason as to why I don't support the Russian Federation , anymore than I do the EU/NATO/the US establishment , since Soviet nostalgia isn't something I can get on board with at all .

The third way of consistently supporting tradition and agitating for peace when it comes to conflict is the way forward in my book , regardless of whether or not that opens one to being accused of being an appeaser of the others side by partisans of both sides .
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Old 08-27-2022, 05:47 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,063 posts, read 106,870,458 times
Reputation: 115814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
These reasons are important, but the main reason is in Kyiv. Russia has not received security guarantees, so in the future Ukraine will be deprived of heavy weapons and the rights of Russians in Ukraine (several million people) will be protected. Demilitarization and denazification.
Demilitarization? Well, now that this war has caused Western Europe and allies to militarize Ukraine to the teeth, that's turned Russia's goal of demilitarization into a much bigger challenge. That wasn't part of the picture, when the decision to start a "special military action" in Ukraine was made.
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Old 08-27-2022, 05:53 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,063 posts, read 106,870,458 times
Reputation: 115814
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Blakeley View Post
But surely you cannot deny the fact that the Soviet Union , as opposed to the Russian Federation which many people these days like to conflate it with , was one of the most brutal states to ever exist in terms of its overall body count ?

For the life of me I can't understand the weird downplaying of the Soviet Union's crimes by so many Russians , when it was precisely them who arguably suffered the most under said regime .

That's precisely part of the reason as to why I don't support the Russian Federation , anymore than I do the EU/NATO/the US establishment , since Soviet nostalgia isn't something I can get on board with at all .

The third way of consistently supporting tradition and agitating for peace when it comes to conflict is the way forward in my book , regardless of whether or not that opens one to being accused of being an appeaser of the others side by partisans of both sides .
Maybe they just want to put it behind them. It was a painful period, especially under Stalin. Most people in any part of the world try to avoid reliving their traumas, collective or individual. Besides, you've pretty much got two new generations that have come of age since all of that happened. Two whole new generations; that's a lot of people who never experienced the Soviet regime, or were too young to be aware of it, or were born during the Gorby "kinder gentler communism" phase. The older cohort is in their 40's already. Time is marching on, as time always does.


And bear in mind, that for many, the difficult times were actually in the 90's, when the economy was in a state of collapse. It was like the US Great Depression at the time. People who had lived in the 70's and 80's remember those decades as the era of stability, for the most part. Life was better then from a material standpoint. I realize that's counter-intuitive to how Westerners imagine life in Russia was, but very few Westerners ever lived there to experience it, so they have no idea.
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