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Old 09-01-2022, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
11,904 posts, read 8,990,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Except that G did pass away yesterday. That's a fact.

And he was the opposite of Putin politically. Instead of restrictions on speech and public expression, Gorby encouraged free expression. He refused to invade countries in the Soviet bloc, when they got too freewheeling for some Party officials' taste.

I bet P is still angry at him for allowing the disintegration of the whole system (which was entirely unforeseen by Gorby). P is trying to turn the clock back to what he considers to be "the good old days". Except for the religion thing. P is pretending he's into that. He's not turning the clock back in that particular arena.
Yes, Gorbachev (and later Yeltsin) tried to establish a legitimate democracy. Russia went through great changes and it was bound to be a bumpy ride - you go from a closed, command economy to a more open and free one in competition with external, global businesses, that's a big change, especially when it's done quickly.

Putin is a thoroughly corrupt, repressive, murderous autocrat. He gave the vast state industries to his crooked cronies for a pittance in exchange for their support and a cut of the spoils. He took over the TV stations, modified the constitution to allow him to choose the oblast governors instead of the people, modified the constitution to allow him to be the leader indefinitely. Protesters, critics, and political opponents are beaten, jailed, or killed. He is believed to have stolen billions. And has Russian business done well under Putin? No. Were it not for their oil, they'd be in deep trouble now, and despite the oil, they're still not doing well. Putin's greedy regime has suppressed any chance of success.
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Old 09-01-2022, 10:59 AM
 
1,619 posts, read 817,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorLover View Post
Yes, Gorbachev (and later Yeltsin) tried to establish a legitimate democracy. Russia went through great changes and it was bound to be a bumpy ride - you go from a closed, command economy to a more open and free one in competition with external, global businesses, that's a big change, especially when it's done quickly.

Putin is a thoroughly corrupt, repressive, murderous autocrat. He gave the vast state industries to his crooked cronies for a pittance in exchange for their support and a cut of the spoils. He took over the TV stations, modified the constitution to allow him to choose the oblast governors instead of the people, modified the constitution to allow him to be the leader indefinitely. Protesters, critics, and political opponents are beaten, jailed, or killed. He is believed to have stolen billions. And has Russian business done well under Putin? No. Were it not for their oil, they'd be in deep trouble now, and despite the oil, they're still not doing well. Putin's greedy regime has suppressed any chance of success.
We got to be fair in our analysis. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the Russia economy take off under Putin. An argument can be made that was due to rising energy prices and sales, but if he gets blame for the bad, you must credit him for the good. I get the praise of Gorbachev and Yeltsin. They were leaders that got along better with the West. I'm sure they had the people interest at heart, but it doesn't change the fact that the Soviet Union collapsed under Gorbachev and the economy was awful under Yeltsin. Just because the two maintained better relations with the West, didn't make them good leaders. An argument could be made if Yeltsin had been more forceful about NATO expansion in the 90s, we may not be in this predicament today.
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Old 09-01-2022, 11:43 AM
 
5,257 posts, read 3,960,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Major View Post
...under Yeltsin.

No way in hell for a normal person to praise Eltsin unless such a person is a: american from Washington, America working for the American government or b: a retarded individual who thinks the west is cool because "hollywood baby". I get the praise for Gorbachev though, you can say he brought more freedom to the masses, at least you can have an argument, of course Putin doesn't like it since the freedom came at the coast of less Russian control in eastern europe, which is another story.
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Old 09-01-2022, 12:03 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,063 posts, read 106,870,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
Honestly I don’t know why Gorbachev has such a bad reputation in Russia? Wasn’t it Yeltsin that back stabbed him and disbanded the Soviet Union? Did the Russian elite brainwash the Russians or something? What am I missing? Sure he could’ve done perhaps more to stay in power and fire Yeltsin, but foresight is 20/20 and I don’t think he deserves to blamed for all of that.

Plus he was tasked with fixing Brezhnev’s mess, so really if anything the blame should fall on him, which looks like Putin is following his footsteps by undoing all his good work from his younger days by stepping into a quagmire and stagnating the economy
Good questions, grega! That transitional period between Gorbachev and Yeltsin is a bit murky in some ways. All I remember is, that conservatives in Parliament rebelled against Gorby's reforms and tried to stage a coup while G. was away, ordering tanks into the Moscow streets. Yeltsin was among a group of MP's who defied the coup attempt, creating a grand spectacle by climbing on top of one of the tanks and making a speech. That was the turning point of the event. Here's an interesting article by the BBC, that provides some additional information. It says the commander of the tank brigade, unbeknownst to Yeltsin and his "democrat"colleagues, felt conflicted about the orders he'd been given. This explains why not only Yeltsin was allowed to climb a tank.

I was watching events on TV prior to traveling to Moscow myself in the middle of all that. I'd arranged a small group to travel to Buryatia, and we had a meeting scheduled in Moscow in one of the ministries, when suddenly this situation exploded onto the world stage. I watched events to decide whether it was safe to go. And I saw a young person jump up onto one of the tanks as it rolled by, and place a flower on it. This was all I needed to know, to go forward with the trip. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-14589691

This doesn't explain subsequent events, as to how Gorbachev ended up deposed, though. You're right, that Yeltsin betrayed Gorbachev. He was able to use his moment in the spotlight on the tank and afterwards to create an image of himself as a national leader. And that's the image that stuck with the public, while Gorbachev came out of the putsch attempt looking weak. And somehow Yeltsin was able to gain the upper hand then and in following months. Gorbachev resigned a few months later. I don't understand the details. That's all I know. There must have been a lot of behind-the-scenes manouvring by Yeltsin to promote himself and sideline Gorbachev.

Here's an article that discusses some of the details, how Yeltsin never liked Gorbachev, had ambitions to replace him, and took advantage of events to sideline him. https://theworld.org/stories/2011-09...nd-demise-ussr

Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 09-01-2022 at 12:15 PM..
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Old 09-01-2022, 12:36 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,063 posts, read 106,870,458 times
Reputation: 115814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Major View Post
We got to be fair in our analysis. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the Russia economy take off under Putin. An argument can be made that was due to rising energy prices and sales, but if he gets blame for the bad, you must credit him for the good. I get the praise of Gorbachev and Yeltsin. They were leaders that got along better with the West. I'm sure they had the people interest at heart, but it doesn't change the fact that the Soviet Union collapsed under Gorbachev and the economy was awful under Yeltsin. Just because the two maintained better relations with the West, didn't make them good leaders. An argument could be made if Yeltsin had been more forceful about NATO expansion in the 90s, we may not be in this predicament today.
There's an interesting question embedded in your view of events. Why did the entire economy come to a standstill after a (radical) political shift? If the country had been hobbling forward just prior to the change in government, why couldn't it continue hobbling afterward? Why did new construction on apartment buildings and other capital outlay suddenly freeze? If the government had the assets to pay for those things prior to summer 1991, where did the money in the federal budget go?

Putin did benefit from better oil prices. He's also been pushing mining aggressively all along. Perhaps he's been selling some of those resources on the world market along with oil. In his first administration, he did a lot of basic infrastructure development across the country, building new roads, extending railroads, building new dams for expanding hydroelectric generating capacity. All of that should have been done back in the Soviet period, but the more distant regions of the "empire" (aka: "Union") were seriously neglected then, except for resource extraction to benefit the federal budget.

In his second administration, he spent a fair amount of money modernizing and upgrading the higher education system across the country, including in the ethnic republics. The trade-off there was, that the universities had the word "federal" added to their names, to underscore that they were now accountable to Moscow for the content of what was being taught. Ethnic republics that had begun to develop Native studies curricula in the schools as well as the universities suddenly saw those programs eliminated in favor of an emphasis on business training programs.

And in his third administration, he initiated the process that has gotten Russia, Ukraine and Europe to where they are now.
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Old 09-01-2022, 01:05 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,063 posts, read 106,870,458 times
Reputation: 115814
Quote:
Originally Posted by euro123 View Post
No way in hell for a normal person to praise Eltsin unless such a person is a: american from Washington, America working for the American government or b: a retarded individual who thinks the west is cool because "hollywood baby". I get the praise for Gorbachev though, you can say he brought more freedom to the masses, at least you can have an argument, of course Putin doesn't like it since the freedom came at the coast of less Russian control in eastern europe, which is another story.
I always thought he looked very duplicitous, not to be trusted. But he presented himself as being pro-democracy, so the US gov't fell all over him. Back then, it was not only trendy in Russia to say you're a "democrat". It became a code word the corrupt old-guard used, that meant in reality they were fully in favor of the economic privatization that was going on, that enabled them to grab state assets for virtually free. The term had nothing to do with political liberalization to such people; it was all about taking advantage of the "regime change" to enrich themselves.
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Old 09-01-2022, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
11,904 posts, read 8,990,771 times
Reputation: 15201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Major View Post
We got to be fair in our analysis. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the Russia economy take off under Putin. An argument can be made that was due to rising energy prices and sales, but if he gets blame for the bad, you must credit him for the good. I get the praise of Gorbachev and Yeltsin. They were leaders that got along better with the West. I'm sure they had the people interest at heart, but it doesn't change the fact that the Soviet Union collapsed under Gorbachev and the economy was awful under Yeltsin. Just because the two maintained better relations with the West, didn't make them good leaders. An argument could be made if Yeltsin had been more forceful about NATO expansion in the 90s, we may not be in this predicament today.
Well, according to official figures, you're right, there was a strong climb in GDP from about 2003-2013, which is part of Putin's tenure. https://datacommons.org/place/countr...oduction&hl=en

I guess I don't take this at face value. Officially, Vladimir Putin is a humble civil servant making a little over $100,000 a year. Unofficially, he happens to own this $700,000,000 yacht as a toy. My point is, if Vladimir Putin wants the official truth to be something (like, we're not at war with Ukraine - which he's been denying since 2014)... who among government officials will dare to publicly contradict him? In Russia, the truth is whatever Vladimir Putin says it is.
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Old 09-01-2022, 05:43 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,063 posts, read 106,870,458 times
Reputation: 115814
Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorLover View Post
Well, according to official figures, you're right, there was a strong climb in GDP from about 2003-2013, which is part of Putin's tenure. https://datacommons.org/place/countr...oduction&hl=en

I guess I don't take this at face value. Officially, Vladimir Putin is a humble civil servant making a little over $100,000 a year. Unofficially, he happens to own this $700,000,000 yacht as a toy. My point is, if Vladimir Putin wants the official truth to be something (like, we're not at war with Ukraine - which he's been denying since 2014)... who among government officials will dare to publicly contradict him? In Russia, the truth is whatever Vladimir Putin says it is.
That's a LOT of money in a country where the average worker, university professor, Academy of Sciences scholar, school teacher, museum curator, etc. makes around $300/month, roughly. I wonder what presidents of Latin American countries make.
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Old 09-01-2022, 09:26 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,063 posts, read 106,870,458 times
Reputation: 115814
Quote:
Originally Posted by ******* View Post
How are Russian tourists getting treated in other countries recently? Especially within the rest of Europe.. The entire conflict with Ukraine can't go any further. No World War III! Or be very afraid from Russia. If Pro War!!!?

Just one year ago in 2021, some of the best people I encountered in travels were from Russia!? Just extremely traumatized what happened from Russia since 2022 almost just some month later. Didn't think anyone was that different or capable of such War crime atrocities. Assuming all of the ones I encountered are against the War. Can't speak up about the conflict. The Kremlin news media control that completely blocks out Westernized forms of freedom in speech better not be misleading or fooling anyone of them.
Well, with the economic situation there being what it is, there probably aren't too many people spending discretionary income on a major expense like tourism...


I wonder how all the Russians who fled to Georgia and Armenia are doing. The media have forgotten about them.
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Old 09-02-2022, 05:50 AM
 
1,888 posts, read 1,159,574 times
Reputation: 1778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Well, with the economic situation there being what it is, there probably aren't too many people spending discretionary income on a major expense like tourism...


I wonder how all the Russians who fled to Georgia and Armenia are doing. The media have forgotten about them.
They are not welcome according to friend there.....
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